Jewish Ethnocentrism

[Messianic Jewboy]

Btw Marc, thanks for demonstrating what Jewish Ethnocentrism is.

Matt 32:13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. 14 [a]

15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!

16 “Woe to you, you blind guides!

Luke 11:52 “Woe to you Torah experts! For you have taken away the key of knowledge! Not only did you yourselves not go in, you also have stopped those who were trying to enter!”

Isn't Torah 'The Key of Knowledge'? Boy can't have those Gentiles getting hold of that. Stop 'em at the door and demand to see their 'Divine Invitation'!

that has nothing to do with my addressing you about condemning Messianic and traditional Judaism.

 

[etZion]

First the SoP says don't contrast with traditional Judaism. Whether traditional Judaism has Yeshua is irrelevant to your crusade.

The point is you have posted stuff that condemns Messianic Judaism and have mis-. If you don't like Messianic Judaism then I suggest you find or create your own.

If the purpose of Messianic Judaism in it's infancy was to be a place for Jewish believers and serve Jewish believers and their families, what's wrong with that? Now you're going out on a crusade to change the purpose? I find it hard that will happen because since the primarily purpose was to create Jewish space you only need 10 Jewish males. Same applies in a traditional synagogue.

Go in a orthodox synagogue and wear tzizit and see where that gets you. See you wouldn't do that I hope.

And my response is to address condemnation of traditional Judaism and Messianic Judaism.

Marc, technically if this were true, then Messianic Judaism should have never let in gentiles, common sense here really, but instead it allowed for such, because it was not for Jewish space exclusively, and if it really is for Jews only, then kick the gentiles out, very simple solution... What are you waiting for? Send in a letter to UMJC and MJAA, demanding they kick out the gentiles, I would love to see what happens...

 

[Yahudim]

C'mon Marc,

Don't give me that tired old line. I remember when UMJC, MJAA FFOZ etc., were INCLUSIVE of Gentiles and Jews. I remember when YOU were INCLUSIVE, One Law and didn't support discrimination and Jewish apartheid. It's only been in the last few years that this evil re-erection of the Wall of Separation has been underway. 'Gimme that Ole Time Religion', doesn't mean going back to Temple times and kicking the Gentiles to the curb. Been around for a while Marc. Can't fool me with that.

Does Tishri say that this forum promotes separate Messianic synagogues for Jews and Gentiles? Tell me that.

First the SoP says don't contrast with traditional Judaism. Whether traditional Judaism has Yeshua is irrelevant to your crusade.

The point is you have posted stuff that condemns Messianic Judaism and have mis-. If you don't like Messianic Judaism then I suggest you find or create your own.

If the purpose of Messianic Judaism in it's infancy was to be a place for Jewish believers and serve Jewish believers and their families, what's wrong with that? Now you're going out on a crusade to change the purpose? I find it hard that will happen because since the primarily purpose was to create Jewish space you only need 10 Jewish males. Same applies in a traditional synagogue.

Go in a orthodox synagogue and wear tzizit and see where that gets you. See you wouldn't do that I hope.

 

[Yahudim]

While you are at it Marc Possoff, you might petition CF to kick the Gentiles out of the Messianic Judaism forum too. Lemme know how that goes for you, OK?

In the mean time, all you have to do is have something in your sig or whatever that says Messianic and you can post in here. So I think we are a long way from that happening.

Marc, technically if this were true, then Messianic Judaism should have never let in gentiles, common sense here really, but instead it allowed for such, because it was not for Jewish space exclusively, and if it really is for Jews only, then kick the gentiles out, very simple solution... What are you waiting for? Send in a letter to UMJC and MJAA, demanding they kick out the gentiles, I would love to see what happens...

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, technically if this were true, then Messianic Judaism should have never let in gentiles, common sense here really, but instead it allowed for such, because it was not for Jewish space exclusively, and if it really is for Jews only, then kick the gentiles out, very simple solution... What are you waiting for? Send in a letter to UMJC and MJAA, demanding they kick out the gentiles, I would love to see what happens...

Wait a minute! I never said kick the non Jews out. Sure it was for Jewish space initially in it's infancy. Jews were in church prior to Messianic Judaism and/ or an arm of the church/Hebrew Christians within the church. Then the influx of non Jews. Never has the MJAA said kick the non Jews out. Now you're mis- representing?

 

[etZion]

Wait a minute! I never said kick the non Jews out. Sure it was for Jewish space initially in it's infancy. Jews were in church prior to Messianic Judaism and/ or an arm of the church/Hebrew Christians within the church. Then the influx of non Jews. Never has the MJAA said kick the non Jews out. Now you're mis- representing?

I am saying, if the purpose is for Jews as you stated, then an influx of gentiles denies that purpose. Thus if what you say is true, then the gentiles need to go, not a very hard equation. You said the MJAA never kicked any gentiles out, do you know why?

Earlier you said:

Messianic Judaism purpose is a place for Jewish believers and serves Jewish believers.

Messianic Judaism, at least with the major organizations, is mainly made up of Gentiles, so how do we apply your purpose of what it should be, to the reality of what it actually is? Also what does the end result look like?

 

[Yahudim]

*snip*​

Earlier you said:

Messianic Judaism purpose is a place for Jewish believers and serves Jewish believers.

*snip*​

He also said something about Messianic JEWISH synagogues too. The obvious implication is that they are not there to serve Messianic Gentile believers. I just want to see scripture to back up that position.

 

[Lulav]

I would just like to remind folks that this forum was formed by a Gentile by another Gentile who asked that it be made.

This is not a congregation or even a congregations forum. Please be resepctful of each other, would you all carry on like this with Yeshua in the room?

 

[Lulav]

Actually Sis, I found DBYs post personally offensive and I am glad that it is gone. My wife liked it even less, considering the innuendo concerning you and I. Could I ask that you and Vis edit out that part? I see no good reason to preserve such suggestions. I would be grateful if you did.

Thanks,
Phillip

I apologize Phil, I just read it quickly and wondered where it came from as the whole post is not on the forum, I am glad there is a mod that took it out.

I apologize to your wife for whatever it was, it certainly doesn't sound good!

 

[janwoG]

To add to this discussion, Torah resources where Tim Hegg is one of the leaders http://www.torahresource.com/ and Bereansonline http://www.bereansonline.org/ are inclusive and promote the One Law for all Messianics.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Jan

It's nice to see you back on the forum! Thanks for posting these links as I think they lead to some very relevant teachings concerning this topic.

However I am beginning to have reservations about the term 'One Law'. Not because it is inaccurate in any way, but because it doesn't encompass the real issue. One Law is the proof, so to speak, but the issue in Gentile Inclusion. The counterpoint is Gentile Exclusion, something that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

I would very much like to hear your feedback on this observation.

Thanks again,
Phillip

To add to this discussion, Torah resources where Tim Hegg is one of the leaders http://www.torahresource.com/ and Bereansonline http://www.bereansonline.org/ are inclusive and promote the One Law for all Messianics.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi Jan

It's nice to see you back on the forum! Thanks for posting these links as I think they lead to some very relevant teachings concerning this topic.

However I am beginning to have reservations about the term 'One Law'. Not because it is inaccurate in any way, but because it doesn't encompass the real issue. One Law is the proof, so to speak, but the issue in Gentile Inclusion. The counterpoint is Gentile Exclusion, something that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

I would very much like to hear your feedback on this observation.

Thanks again,
Phillip

Gentile inclusion into what ?

Gentile exclusion from what?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This is blatantly false. If ten gentiles are attached to Israel through Torah, they are to be considered the same under the Law as the native born. Your shenanigans may work on the less informed. But you cannot fool me with this hogwash.

Non Jews are attached to Israel through Torah and not by the faithfulness of Yeshua?

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Marc,

I wanted to give you as serious an answer, as the questions you posed. So, without further ado...

Abbott: Strange as it may seem, they give ball players nowadays very peculiar names.
Costello: Funny names?
Abbott: Nicknames, nicknames. Now, on the St. Louis team we have Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third--
Costello: That's what I want to find out. I want you to tell me the names of the fellows on the St. Louis team.
Abbott: I'm telling you. Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third--
Costello: You know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well, then who's playing first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name on first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The fellow playin' first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first base.
Abbott: Who is on first.
Costello: Well, what are you askin' me for?
Abbott: I'm not asking you--I'm telling you. Who is on first.
Costello: I'm asking you--who's on first?
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
Abbott: Every dollar of it. And why not, the man's entitled to it.
Costello: Who is?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: So who gets it?
Abbott: Why shouldn't he? Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
Costello: Who's wife?
Abbott: Yes. After all, the man earns it.
Costello: Who does?
Abbott: Absolutely.
Costello: Well, all I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base?
Abbott: Oh, no, no. What is on second base.
Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Costello: St. Louis has a good outfield?
Abbott: Oh, absolutely.
Costello: The left fielder's name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: I don't know, I just thought I'd ask.
Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell you.
Costello: Then tell me who's playing left field?
Abbott: Who's playing first.
Costello: Stay out of the infield! The left fielder's name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: Because.
Abbott: Oh, he's center field.
Costello: Wait a minute. You got a pitcher on this team?
Abbott: Wouldn't this be a fine team w i t h o u t a pitcher?
Costello: Tell me the pitcher's name.
Abbott: Tomorrow.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Costello: Now, when the guy at bat bunts the ball--me being a good catcher--I want to throw the guy out at first base, so I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
Abbott: Now, that's he first thing you've said right.
Costello: I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!
Abbott: Don't get excited. Take it easy.
Costello: I throw the ball to first base, whoever it is grabs the ball, so the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to what. What throws it to I don't know. I don't know throws it back to tomorrow--a triple play.
Abbott: Yeah, it could be.
Costello: Another guy gets up and it's a long ball to center.
Abbott: Because.
Costello: Why? I don't know. And I don't care.
Abbott: What was that?
Costello: I said, I DON'T CARE!
Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop!

Gentile inclusion into what ?

Gentile exclusion from what?

 

[Yahudim]

So Y'shua isn't the living Torah?

If you are going to play the denial game, in replying to you in the future, I should frame all my response based on comedy routines. At least it would be entertaining.

Non Jews are attached to Israel through Torah and not by the faithfulness of Yeshua?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

So Y'shua isn't the living Torah?

If you are going to play the denial game, in replying to you in the future, I should frame all my response based on comedy routines. At least it would be entertaining.

Then you should have said non Jews are grafted into Israel through Yeshua's faithfulness THEN hears Moses every Sabbath and learns to live a godly life.

 

[MadMaxData]

I don't appreciate your crusade in contrasting Messianic Judaism from traditional Judaism and it's against the SoP.

Me either.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

So Y'shua isn't the living Torah?

If you are going to play the denial game, in replying to you in the future, I should frame all my response based on comedy routines. At least it would be entertaining.

I hope you're not teaching that the Torah is the means to be a participant of the New Covenant?

 

[Yahudim]

I'm not. I just don't find any support for congregational bigotry in scripture. A call to minister to the Jewish people is between an individual and his Maker. Operating a congregation where believing gentiles are discriminated against an entirely different matter.

Btw, it's the renewed covenant. It's not a different covenant Marc. People are not grafted into a new olive tree. Sheesh. Are you guys reading the the same Word as everyone else?

Me either.

 

[Yahudim]

I do believe that Torah observance is key. So what? Y'shua didn't say, "If you love me, don't keep my mitzvot", did He?

I hope you're not teaching that the Torah is the means to be a participant of the New Covenant?