A Pondering of the Peculiar

[Sayre]

"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
--Epicurus

This reminds me of Stephen Law's evil God hypothesis. Have you read it?

I think He is able and willing but that there is another reason why "evil" (suffering) exists. I would never deny that suffering exists. But suffering can be posed in such a way that has benefits; benefits that cannot be realised without suffering.

Stephen Law: The Evil God Challenge

 

[Sayre]

There is suffering in the world.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he is capable of stopping all suffering without effort (omnipotent), knows of the suffering (omniscient), but is unwilling to stop it: unjust

If God is omnipotent and just, then he is capable of stopping all suffering without effort (omnipotent), is willing to prevent suffering (just), but doesn't know about it: not omniscient

If God is just and omniscient, then he is willing to prevent all suffering (just), knows about the suffering (omniscient), but is incapable of stopping it: not omnipotent

You can't have all three as long as there is suffering in the world.

Conclusion: Either God isn't all three, there is no suffering in the world, or God doesn't exist.

Take your pick.

Can God grant free will to mankind and then force Bob not to cause suffering to Mary?

Can God know the good value of free will, and not grant it?

Can God know the good value of patience, endurance and persistence, but not allow mankind to learn it and experience it?

 

[bhsmte]

Can God grant free will to mankind and then force Bob not to cause suffering to Mary?

Can God know the good value of free will, and not grant it?

Can God know the good value of patience, endurance and persistence, but not allow mankind to learn it and experience it?

To me, all of this is all the more reason if a God exists, he is not a personal God that intervenes with life on earth or answers prayers.

If a God intervened by answering prayers; cure my disease, I need a new job, etc. etc., then he would be interfering with free will many claims he has given everyone.

Then, you have those who talk about God's divine plan for everyone (which he knows about ahead of time), that also can be argued to go against the free will assumption.

The whole thing is really convoluted and that is really what you get, when people try to put labels and descriptions on a being, based on a 2000 year old book and the desires of individual people's needs.

 

[46AND2]

There can be no perfect liar. But good try.

You don't think an omnipotent, evil god would lie perfectly? Why not?

 

[46AND2]

If you had a guide that was The Truth than you would know right away

But this doesn't exist, not even logically.

You could choose to believe your guide, but it would be entirely on faith. There's no way you can know if your guide is not a perfect lie.

 

[46AND2]

Can God grant free will to mankind and then force Bob not to cause suffering to Mary?

Can God know the good value of free will, and not grant it?

Can God know the good value of patience, endurance and persistence, but not allow mankind to learn it and experience it?

An omnipotent, omniscient creator god cannot grant free will. We can only choose exactly the choice that was chosen for us by god when he chose to make this specific universe.

 

[biggles53]

Can God grant free will to mankind and then force Bob not to cause suffering to Mary?

Can God know the good value of free will, and not grant it?

Can God know the good value of patience, endurance and persistence, but not allow mankind to learn it and experience it?

Does your god permitting a tsunami to take 200,000 lives violate Bob's 'free will'...?

 

[Sayre]

To me, all of this is all the more reason if a God exists, he is not a personal God that intervenes with life on earth or answers prayers.

If a God intervened by answering prayers; cure my disease, I need a new job, etc. etc., then he would be interfering with free will many claims he has given everyone.

Then, you have those who talk about God's divine plan for everyone (which he knows about ahead of time), that also can be argued to go against the free will assumption.

The whole thing is really convoluted and that is really what you get, when people try to put labels and descriptions on a being, based on a 2000 year old book and the desires of individual people's needs.

Pretty much. I don't believe He intervenes much on earth because that interferes with the beauty and good of free will. That isn't to say He doesn't intervene at all - but He allows us to exercise our own free will and experience the uniformity of nature, IMHO.

 

[Sayre]

An omnipotent, omniscient creator god cannot grant free will. We can only choose exactly the choice that was chosen for us by god when he chose to make this specific universe.

I disagree. I think that if conditions are upon the will, it is no longer free. I think God has given mankind genuine free will.

 

[Sayre]

Does your god permitting a tsunami to take 200,000 lives violate Bob's 'free will'...?

No, it doesn't. Natural suffering is not defended by free will.

 

[46AND2]

I disagree. I think that if conditions are upon the will, it is no longer free. I think God has given mankind genuine free will.

Can you make a choice that surprises god?

 

[Sayre]

Can you make a choice that surprises god?

I have freedom of choice. I don't have freedom of how others interpret my choice - I think that is outside of the scope of free will.

That would be like me suggesting that free will doesn't exist because you don't have the ability to convince AV he is wrong about God.

Anyway...

Wrapped up in that question is also another aspect - about whether or not God *can* be surprised. You already know that I don't follow the tri-omni-max ontology of God.

 

[46AND2]

I have freedom of choice. I don't have freedom of how others interpret my choice - I think that is outside of the scope of free will.

That would be like me suggesting that free will doesn't exist because you don't have the ability to convince AV he is wrong about God.

Anyway...

Wrapped up in that question is also another aspect - about whether or not God *can* be surprised. You already know that I don't follow the tri-omni-max ontology of God.

Yes, but your comment about free will was in direct response to a post that was talking specifically about a tri-omni god. And you disagreed with me that such a god could not grant free will. It's fine if you don't believe in such a god, but its beside the point in this discussion.

 

[Sayre]

I disagree. I think that if conditions are upon the will, it is no longer free. I think God has given mankind genuine free will.

Yes, but your comment about free will was in direct response to a post that was talking specifically about a tri-omni god. And you disagreed with me that such a god could not grant free will. It's fine if you don't believe in such a god, but its beside the point in this discussion.

Ah I checked back and you are right - sorry.

 

[46AND2]

Ah I checked back and you are right - sorry.

So that brings us to the question, what DO you believe about God's power?

1. Is he knowledgeable enough to know all possible outcomes of the future?
2. Is he powerful enough to create any of an infinite number of universes?

If the answer to both is yes, then he made all choices for everyone, when he chose to create the universe he did.

 

[Sayre]

So that brings us to the question, what DO you believe about God's power?

1. Is he knowledgeable enough to know all possible outcomes of the future?
2. Is he powerful enough to create any of an infinite number of universes?

If the answer to both is yes, then he made all choices for everyone, when he chose to create the universe he did.

I believe 1 and 2, but I don't believe your conclusion follows. If He is powerful enough to create an infinite number of universes, then one of those universes contains genuine free will that He does not impede simply by knowing what people will choose in advance. I disagree that foreknowledge is the same as predestination.

 

[SkyWriting]

Who was God talking to when he supposedly said that? who wrote it down and who heard God say it?

Such in depth Bile study can be very rewarding. I enjoy small group settings
for such discussions. Blessings to you.

 

[46AND2]

I believe 1 and 2, but I don't believe your conclusion follows. If He is powerful enough to create an infinite number of universes, then one of those universes contains genuine free will that He does not impede simply by knowing what people will choose in advance.

It's a paradox no matter how you look at it. The set of free will universes included in infinity, can't exist if he is able to select any universe he wants with foreknowledge.

I disagree that foreknowledge is the same as predestination.

That would be true if he was merely an observer...but he isn't. He is the one who selected all outcomes when choosing to create this particular universe.

 

[Sayre]

It's a paradox no matter how you look at it. The set of free will universes included in infinity, can't exist if he is able to select any universe he wants with foreknowledge.



That would be true if he was merely an observer...but he isn't. He is the one who selected all outcomes when choosing to create this particular universe.

Right but the universe He chose contained genuine free will - that is, things that He did not choose.

 

[46AND2]

Right but the universe He chose contained genuine free will - that is, things that He did not choose.

Let me give you an example:

Say you have an apple and an orange left in the refrigerator. It appears to you that you have the choice of one or the other, so you "choose" apple.

However, could God have made a universe where you choose orange instead? Of course. Therefore, he chose apple for you when he decided to create a universe in which you choose apple instead of one where you choose orange.