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Who said Job was blameless?

Setyoufree

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A bishop is supposed to be blameless....

It seems that you are trying to take the heat off of Job. Shall we justify his sin through the misuse of other scripture?

If you wish to debate the qualifications for a bishop then please start another thread.

Thanks
 
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MJohn7

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It seems that you are trying to take the heat off of Job. Shall we justify his sin through the misuse of other scripture?

If you wish to debate the qualifications for a bishop then please start another thread.

Thanks

I made a valid point. Any man would be asking God what he did wrong if he endured Jobs trial.
 
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Setyoufree

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Elihu to Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin...."


http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-john/1-8.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-john/1-8.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2truth is not in us." [1 John 1:8]

Job was self-deceived by his own self-righteousness. In order to open Job's eyes God had to partially abandon him.

What happens when God removes himself?

"I will forsake them and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/deuteronomy/31-17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3hide My face from them....and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/deuteronomy/31-17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'" [Deut 31:17]
 
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Setyoufree

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Any man would be asking God what he did wrong if he endured Jobs trial.

Job wasn't asking what he did wrong. Job was justifying himself before God by his performance. That's legalism 101.

We are not to approach God and demand of Him heaven by our performance. This is the essence of Phariseeism. This belongs to the Old Covenant of salvation by works.

Only "in Christ" are we acceptable. Hence Christ is to represent us in Himself and not the other way around.

"Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in him". Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God."
 
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Setyoufree

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Isnt that what a Bishops blamelessness is judged by? Isnt it judged by whether he does right or wrong?

Well, it seems that I promised you I would look at this, even though I feel that you are trying to use this to excuse Job of his sin. So I must keep my promise now since I am basically through with the story of Job.

Let's look at the context of a Bishop:

1 Tim 3:2 A bishop must have a good reputation (i.e., a blameless reputation). He must have only one wife, be sober, use good judgment, be respectable, be hospitable, and be able to teach. 3 He must not drink excessively or be a violent person, but he must be gentle. He must not be quarrelsome or love money. 4 He must manage his own family well. His children should respectfully obey him. 5 (If a man doesn't know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)

That's the qualification for a bishop according to Paul.

Now, having a good reputation is not the same as being "blameless" (without sin) before God.

Hence the Bible teaches that "there is none righteous, no, not even one" and that "all have sinned" and that "all fall short" of God's love as seen in the life of Christ.

So compared to Christ (and He fulfilled the law) no one is measuring up. Therefore none of us can boast of our righteousness before God. We can only boast in the Lord because in Him we are complete and never by our own righteousness.
 
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Setyoufree

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I see a man asking God what evil he did to deserve such a fate.

Yes, and that's how we humans tend to do when trouble strikes. That's because we are by nature (birth) proud. We are by nature legalistic...that is, we think we have something to offer God and when trouble comes we view God as the One afflicting us.

That's not the issue with Job. Yes, he wanted to know his sin, but Job was blaming God for his affliction when it was clearly Satan.

All believers struggle with the "why" when trouble comes, but to stand before God and justify one's righteousness is blasphemous. We can never stand just (righteous) before God through our performance. It isn't going to happen!

Last year I was out for a second back surgery. My wife literally just pulled up to our house (she was driving) - I reached for the garage door opener and out of the right side of my eye I saw a bolt of lightening shoot down one of my trees and then jump over to my roof. Within 5 minutes my house was fully ablaze.

Do you know what I asked God as I helplessly watched my house burning to the ground? Why - what did I do?

That's being human because we tend to think legalistically. We think God is punishing us. I mean the moment we pulled up to the house, bang, lightening. The timing was perfect.

The next months were hell. I couldn't understand why God allowed it. I had gone from God did it to God allowed it.

Was I being self-righteous? Yes, a bit to begin with, but I never said "God I am blameless; I am righteous".

In the end I am more blessed then before. I am in a brand new home (a brick home at that). It's in a better neighborhood (the other one didn't have a HOA and crime was coming in).

I don't know God's reason for letting the fire happen, but it wasn't because I was self-righteous. I might have to wait until I get to heaven to get the answer to this one. But it did make me question God. Did I present to him my righteousness, as Job did? No....
 
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brinny

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Yes, and that's how we humans tend to do when trouble strikes. That's because we are by nature (birth) proud. We are by nature legalistic...that is, we think we have something to offer God and when trouble comes we view God as the One afflicting us.

That's not the issue with Job. Yes, he wanted to know his sin, but Job was blaming God for his affliction when it was clearly Satan.

All believers struggle with the "why" when trouble comes, but to stand before God and justify one's righteousness is blasphemous. We can never stand just (righteous) before God through our performance. It isn't going to happen!

Last year I was out for a second back surgery. My wife literally just pulled up to our house (she was driving) - I reached for the garage door opener and out of the right side of my eye I saw a bolt of lightening shoot down one of my trees and then jump over to my roof. Within 5 minutes my house was fully ablaze.

Do you know what I asked God as I helplessly watched my house burning to the ground? Why - what did I do?

That's being human because we tend to think legalistically. We think God is punishing us. I mean the moment we pulled up to the house, bang, lightening. The timing was perfect.

The next months were hell. I couldn't understand why God allowed it. I had gone from God did it to God allowed it.

Was I being self-righteous? Yes, a bit to begin with, but I never said "God I am blameless; I am righteous".

In the end I am more blessed then before. I am in a brand new home (a brick home at that). It's in a better neighborhood (the other one didn't have a HOA and crime was coming in).

I don't know God's reason for letting the fire happen, but it wasn't because I was self-righteous. I might have to wait until I get to heaven to get the answer to this one. But it did make me question God. Did I present to him my righteousness, as Job did? No....

i'm sooooo sorry.....i was just listening to a preacher recently who said that God is big enough to hear our hearts and all that is inside during inexplicable pain, those times when we are sometimes so stunned that we are speechless....and other times when we just express raw hurting to the only ONE Who is able to get us through it. I've read that He raises beauty from ashes, this inexplicable God Who loves us beyond measure, even when we are shut down or overwhelmed, or crushed un-recognizably. I've also read that He is very near the broken-hearted. May He comfort, minister to, and heal you.

He sees beyond our flailings and sees our pain.....like a very gifted horse whisperer approaching a severely "spooked" horse.
 
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RDKirk

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[/color][/b]

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." [1 John 1:8]

Job was self-deceived by his own self-righteousness. In order to open Job's eyes God had to partially abandon him.

What happens when God removes himself?

"I will forsake them and hide My face from them....and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'" [Deut 31:17]

You have not yet demolished God's flat-out statement:

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

You need nothing less than another flat-out statement from God stating just the opposite. God emphasizes His point, in fact, by making four flat-out statements:

There is no one on earth like Job
Job is blameless and upright
Job fears God
Job shuns evil.

If God were merely expressing Job's opinion of himself, God would not have emphasized it in four different ways. You must necessarily demolish each of those four statements.
 
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Setyoufree

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Principle: “Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted”

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

God, through Elihu, rebukes Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf...

Job's problem:

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.

Job repents:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Job's wealth is restored:

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Conclusion:

When God said that Job was blameless, He was presenting Job's view of himself.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Job thought that God was being unjust to him because he was blameless at the start. Normally the blameless ones, do not suffer the withdrawal of God's presence.

In the same manner Jesus cried out on the cross Why hast Thou forsaken me? Job was asking the same question.

You are so correct. Your words argue against your point, Job was blameless but God did something to a blameless person that he doesn’t do, withdrawal from them.

This only happened once in all history as you so aptly point out. Jesus was blameless. Job was not blameless, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.

It is a sin to believe you are righteous based on your actions and this is exactly what Job thought. Also, God hates the proud and humbles them. Job clearly states his righteousness in chapter 29 as he recalls his position of honor before all this transpired.

Everyone is so stuck on the statement by God to Satan saying Job was blameless.

Job was blameless but only in his ACTIONS. If there was a visible sin, Satan would know about it and then he would accuse Job before God. But, God does not accuse. God will not make known to Satan a sin of the heart or mind. So if Satan thought Job to be blameless it would be slanderous for God to accuse Job and say that Job was not blameless. Satan can only see what we do, but God searches the heart.

So to answer the thread question, God and Satan agreed with Job that based on his actions, he was blameless.

The state of Job’s heart was not blameless as Job made clear in all his boastful statements and even accusing God of wrong. This I pointed out in previous posts. No one will refute that Job was proud. That was his sin, in his heart before all the suffering he was tested with.

This is all according to God's plan so that Job would be purified and humbled before the Lord.

Think about one more thing. If Job was blameless and tested just for the heck of it, why did God bless him with twice as much after as before he was tested? If he was the same blameless person before and after, he would receive the same blessings before and after, but he didn't.

Logic says he was more favored in God's sight after this ordeal.
Logic says he needed improvement at the start.
Logic says he was not blameless in heart and thought at the start.
Logic says through suffering he was made better.
God then blessed him more.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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He repented of asking God the question after God displayed His right not to answer it.

So you admit that Job did sin but only after suffering.

So do you think God suffered Job for something he did after he suffered?

So God lets us suffer, so when we sin, God's grace may abound.

Not a very uplifting message for us.
 
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bmjackson

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From AnticipateHisComing

Job was not blameless, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.
All have fallen short and there is none righteous, but praise God that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin 1John 1.7.

It is a sin to believe you are righteous based on your actions and this is exactly what Job thought.
When Job was lamenting the past, it was not his riches or worldly possessions which he missed.

Oh that I were...as in the days when God watched over me; when His lamp shined above my head, and by His light I walked through darkness. 29.2-3.


These are not the words of a self righteous unsaved man that you would have us believe. Job is missing the presence of God , revealing His ways to him, teaching him right from wrong, and not as you say, a man who walked according to his own wisdom and hypocrisy, being good outside but rotten within.

Job was suffering as all suffer who are being led by the Spirit, out of the place of conscious communion with God where they are illuminated by Him to a walk by faith alone, where by all accounts they have been abandoned by God through the loss of most if not all of their relationships and sometimes wealth.

If Job was blameless and tested just for the heck of it, why did God bless him with twice as much after as before he was tested? I
He was not tested 'for the heck of it', He was perfect and without sin but the time had come for a deeper more profound knowledge and walk with God. The double portion he receive afterwards was by the by. It mattered nothing to him before (the Lord gaveth and the Lord taketh away blessed be the Lord) and meant nothing to him afterwards.

In those days without social security, men like Job, leaders, were responsible for the welfare of others. It is modern man's materialistic ideas that imagine that gain is for the recipients benefit alone.

Logic says he was more favored in God's sight after this ordeal.
Logic says he needed improvement at the start.
Logic says he was not blameless in heart and thought at the start.
Logic says through suffering he was made better.
God then blessed him more.
Logic has nothing at all to do with spiritual laws and the ways of God. God confounds man's logic over and over.

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.
Job was wrong because he demanded an answer from God as to why He had departed from him when there was no cause ie sin on the part of Job. This was the whole point of the discourse and what makes the book such a blessing to others walking that path. God, in hiding Himself from us (also in Song of Solomon) does not always do so because we have sinned. It is sometimes due to spiritual progress.

Friend, you claim to have more knowledge about Job than men who lived amongst him and treated him as a righteous man of God. He had a great deal of respect amongst them, people who would due to their culture, easily spot a fake.

When I went forth...unto the city...the young men saw me and hid themselves, and the aged rose up....The princes refrained from talking....the voice of nobles was hushed. 29.7-10.


 
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AnticipateHisComing

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These are not the words of a self righteous unsaved man that you would have us believe.

You are so right, but these are words of a proud, arrogant man, 29:24 "When I smiled at them, they scarcely believed it; the light of my face was precious to them."

SHOW ME WHERE I SAID JOB WAS UNSAVED.
SHOW ME WHERE I SAID JOB WAS ROTTEN WITHIN.
I said Job was blameless in actions.
I said Job was not blameless in the heart or mind.

He was perfect and without sin but the time had come for a deeper more profound knowledge and walk with God.

You say, Job was perfect, but needed improvement. I thought perfect meant as good as could possibly be. I thought you agreed with scripture that all have sinned but then you say Job was perfect and sinless. Which is it?

The double portion he receive afterwards was by the by. It mattered nothing to him before (the Lord gaveth and the Lord taketh away blessed be the Lord) and meant nothing to him afterwards.

How would you know it meant nothing to him to receive double?

You just dismiss words of scripture with pure conjecture. They are there for a reason. If it meant nothing to receive double, than God would not have given double. All knew in the time of Job that God blesses those as they obey his commands. Today we don't teach this concept, but back then it was very much in the minds of all. The people would have associated even more respect and honor to Job after his fortunes were restored with double.

Logic has nothing at all to do with spiritual laws and the ways of God. God confounds man's logic over and over.

Amen.
The logic was for you. When you engage in a debate, you present logical arguments. You just dismiss all this because I put the word logic in front. If you want to refute something make a logical statement about it.
Logic says he was more favored in God's sight after this ordeal.
Logic says he needed improvement at the start.
Logic says he was not blameless in heart and thought at the start.
Logic says through suffering he was made better.
God then blessed him more.

God, in hiding Himself from us (also in Song of Solomon) does not always do so because we have sinned. It is sometimes due to spiritual progress.

True sometimes, but you did write that "Normally the blameless ones, do not suffer the withdrawal of God's presence." If fact the punishment of the wicked is stated many times in the book of Job. This frustrate Job to no end as his 3 friends repeatedly accused Job of sinning thereby bringing God's justice to him.

Can you show me one place where the book of Job states God suffers the blameless?

Friend, you claim to have more knowledge about Job than men who lived amongst him and treated him as a righteous man of God. He had a great deal of respect amongst them, people who would due to their culture, easily spot a fake.

Friend, if I was, you would speak to respectably.

Again, where did I say Job did not live a life of righteous actions?
Again, I will say his actions were blameless, his HEART was not. People can't judge that. Only God can.

MY WHOLE POINT OF JOB IS THAT GOD JUDGES THE HEART.
 
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Setyoufree

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Anyone who disagrees with what I've stated will have to get by these key verses:

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

God, through Elihu, rebukes Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf...

Job's problem:

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.

Job repents:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Job's wealth is restored:

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Conclusion:

When God said that Job was blameless, He was presenting Job's view of himself.
 
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Giantbear

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You have not yet demolished God's flat-out statement:

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

You need nothing less than another flat-out statement from God stating just the opposite. God emphasizes His point, in fact, by making four flat-out statements:

There is no one on earth like Job
Job is blameless and upright
Job fears God
Job shuns evil.

If God were merely expressing Job's opinion of himself, God would not have emphasized it in four different ways. You must necessarily demolish each of those four statements.

Also what the poster never mentioned deliberately to place a false premise in everyone's mind is the actual context of God's statement, that was a sneak preview to the scene in heaven where Satan and his fallen angels accompanying him presented themselves to The Lord.

What perspires is a conversation between Satan and The Lord and the initial introduction is when The Lord asked Satan. Just where do you think you have been?

Satan replies in a disobedient and brazen like manner by saying:

"I have been going back and forth from earth and I have manifested myself down there and walked as a man on it"

This opening scene Job was not privy to, he simply was not to know, however the writer was given the message through prophecy as a witness, for this was the way God communicated what he wanted to communicate, that is, through his prophets. This has been and will always be the way God does things.

Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

So for the poster to say that Job opined by his own merits of his own sinlessness is a most preposterous claim because of failing to highlight the original context of the opening scene in heaven.

You responded to the poster and gave a rightful answer in regards to God's view of Job and that much is certain that Job was without fault before God and this picture that God presented was in fact of himself who when he came down as the man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the essence of what the name Job truly meant.

JO-AB means Yahweh is Father
JO-B means Yahweh is persecuted


In Hebrew or Aramaic it is E-U-B when you say them in American pronunciation by further emphasising the vowel E, like EEE-YOU-B and not forgetting to say the B sound at the end.

Now you know the proper way of saying the name.

So Job became as shadow of what was to become of Jesus the almighty Yahweh when he being without sin was falsely accused and cursed to death. Yet God as he made a comparison to himself as his foreshadow of the things to come when he would be presented as a sinless and condemned man, projected this on one man called Job (EEE-YOU-B) whom he brought back to health and gave him back 100 fold of his wealth.

So in essence Job was presented before Satan as a faultless man who depicted the Christ to come and Satan had absolutely no idea what God was on about and he sought to destroy one of God's vessels thinking that he can prove God to be wrong.

The egg fell on Satan's face twice as God had personally sought to make an absolute ass of Satan when he not only proved him wrong about Job's faultless ness, but also he had setup Satan for the fall when he presented himself as the sinless Job all the while Satan was pulling the arguments that this poster was pulling unbeknown to how calculated God was in making a fool out of Satan, for the statement by God exposed Satan's foley, who staunchly attacked God's statement about Job, by saying to God:

Who Job? Sinless? Ha you could have fooled me but let me prove you wrong God and that was what was going through Satan's mind at that particular meeting. God however did not declare Job as sinless, however he presented him as a man without fault and that was the bait that Satan took line hook and sinker.

I just love the way God plays with all the fools that think they can put human arguments before God. Language and all the knowledge and wisdom in the world being used against God will end up making you a fool like Satan was portrayed, not only to the crowd of fallen angels that accompanied him but also to the human family that can see Satan's foley ending up being used against him by his own hand.

Today in the 21st century the spirit of this foley is at work ever more as people think to challenge God on many fronts and I certainly do not imply this to the poster but to the unbelieving world at large and at time it has also absorbed the believers into this worldly argument and debates arising from such foley and these debates are:

1) Does God exist
2) Is Jesus the Almighty God and so on .......

All these characterised this foley of the spirit that Satan used back then and now this same spirit is in man who is being employed and at times, without their knowledge, to challenge God at every turn.

I have sincerely warned you in love that such foley will not be tolerated by God and will cause a greater damnation if a Christian is perpetrating this vile act against God.
 
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