Who said Job was blameless?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Setyoufree View Post

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Job's grown children did not die because of their father's sin....The Bible doesn't say why God did not intervene....

It was Jobs children who cursed God and they died, dont forget that.

2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Good point!


.

 

[RDKirk]

No, untrue. God presented Job as blameless to Satan because that's how Job presented himself to God.

You keep saying that, but you've produced no scripture saying that.

 

[Setyoufree]

You keep saying that, but you've produced no scripture saying that.

Perhaps you need to re-read the scriptures that I already quoted....

 

[RDKirk]

Perhaps you need to re-read the scriptures that I already quoted....

Those scriptures don't say what you claim they say. Not even close. Argument from silence is not a valid argument.

If you'll notice, nobody else has bought off on it, and nobody else in the last 3400 years has come to that conclusion.

 

[Setyoufree]

Those scriptures don't say what you claim they say. Not even close.

Was the Pharisee, in Luke 18:9-14, justified before God when he exalted his self-righteousness before Him?

No!

Since God does not show favoritism (Rom 2:11) then Job was not just before God when he exalted his righteousness before Him.

 

[Setyoufree]

...nobody else in the last 3400 years has come to that conclusion.

I really don't care....

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I want to say EXCELLENT JOB Setyoufree! A couple of years ago I had the same conversation with a buddy of mine just out of the seminary.

There is so much more to the book of Job than the standard message of saints must endure suffering when tested.

Think about that for a moment. Why does God test us? So that if we fall, God’s grace may grow? Certainly not.

Daniel 11:35 “Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.”

We are tested so that we may be purified, made better. If Job was truly blameless than he no longer needed to be purified, there would be no point in testing him. When the accuser went to God, God did brag on Job and I believe he was the most upright man living. As far as Satan knew, Job was blameless. Satan can only see what we do, but God searches the heart.

If there was a visible sin, Satan would know about it and then he would accuse Job before God. But, God does not accuse. God will not make known to Satan a sin of the heart or mind.

So where is the proof that Job’s sin was of the heart. Start with the results of the first test, Job 1:22 “In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.”

Now the results of the second test, Job 2:10b “In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.”

As far as what Satan could see, Job was still blameless."

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So why does the book of Job have 42 chapters and not just 2? Maybe there is more to the story than God tests the saints. Chapters 3 through 31 contain an exchange of words between Job and 3 friends.

As any that has suffered, you see the question of “why God am I suffering”. Job speaks of the customary thinking at that time, that God punishes people for their wrongs. Job 4:7 ““Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished? Where were the upright ever destroyed?”

The conversation between Job and his 3 friends develops into a therapy session trying to explain why Job was suffering. The conversation brings out thoughts that are hidden to men, but not to God.
So here we find what Job was guilty of in his expressing his thoughts to his friends.

9:21 Although I am blameless
10: 7 though you know that I am not guilty
12:4 “I have become a laughingstock to my friends, though I called on God and he answered— a mere laughingstock, though righteous and blameless!
13:19 Can anyone bring charges against me? If so, I will be silent and die.
19: 6 then know that God has wronged me and drawn his net around me.
23:6 No, he would not press charges against me. There the upright can establish their innocence before him
27:2 As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice, the Almighty, who has made my life bitter
27:6 I will maintain my innocence and never let go of it;

So Job was not guilty just for saying these things, he was first guilty for having these thoughts in his mind. Do not think that Job came to this self-righteous thinking after being tested with suffering.

Job had these righteous thoughts about himself in his earlier days of “glory” as these verses in chapter 29 testifies.


Oh, for the days when I was in my prime, when God’s intimate friendship blessed my house,

Whoever heard me spoke well of me, and those who saw me commended me,
because I rescued the poor who cried for help,

I put on righteousness as my clothing; justice was my robe and my turban.

I was eyes to the blind and feet to the lame.

When I smiled at them, they scarcely believed it; the light of my face was precious to them.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So we are at chapter 32 and the book of Job has more to say. Here we have a rebuke from the man Elihu. For six chapters he lays into Job pointing out the sin that the 3 other friends did not.

33:8 “But you have said in my hearing— I heard the very words—9 ‘I am pure, I have done no wrong; I am clean and free from sin.10 Yet God has found fault with me

33:13 Why do you complain to him that he responds to no one’s words?
33:14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
33:17 to turn them from wrongdoing and keep them from pride

34:5 “Job says, ‘I am innocent, but God denies me justice.

34:6 Although I am right, I am considered a liar; although I am guiltless, his arrow inflicts an incurable wound.

35:2 “Do you think this is just? You say, ‘I am in the right, not God.

36:8 But if people are bound in chains, held fast by cords of affliction, 9 he tells them what they have done—that they have sinned arrogantly. 10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.


Elihu ends by proclaiming what Job’s sin was. It was not merely making the above statements but it was his HEART that was not right with God.

37:23 The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress. 24 Therefore, people revere him, for does he not have regard for all the wise in HEART?


How can we be certain that Elihu’s rebuke is true?

First Job did not deny or refute anything that Elihu said. Look at the dialogue. Job talks. Friend 1 talks. Job refutes friend 1. Friend 2 talks. Job refutes friend 2. Friend 3 talks. Job refutes friend 3. Elihu then rebukes Job quoting Job’s own words highlighting his sin. I don’t know about you but if I was suffering as Job and 4 friends rebuked me, I would refute all 4 of them.

The book of Job is still not over. Next God lays into Job. What follows is the most detailed description in the whole Bible of the glory of God’s creation.
Does anyone wonder why that is in here?
How is it relevant to the standard message of Job, that saints must endure suffering when tested? None what so ever.

The creation description is there to, as if God has to, defend against the accusation from Job. That Job was righteous and God was wrong for bringing suffering to him. Now if Job was really blameless as Job 1:8 states, this lecture from God declaring his knowledge, wisdom, just ways and authority over creation would be not be needed.
It further confirms Job’s heart was seriously in the wrong for thinking that God was being unjust to him.

Finally in the last chapter of Job, he repents of his sin, is forgiven and the blessings of God are bestowed on him again.
If Job was blameless there would be no need for him to repent.

 

[granpa]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7795118/#post64748959

 

[brinny]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7795118/#post64748959

Leviathan with seven heads and 10 horns that acts as midwife to the birth of Israel is job.
job had 7 sons and 3 daughters.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate? Are you saying that Job was/is a Leviathan?

 

[RDKirk]

Was the Pharisee, in Luke 18:9-14, justified before God when he exalted his self-righteousness before Him?

No!

Since God does not show favoritism (Rom 2:11) then Job was not just before God when he exalted his righteousness before Him.

Except that Job was agreeing with the statement God had already made about him. If you try to argue here that God didn't mean what He said, you can argue a thousand other places iin scripture by the same false logic that God doesn't mean what He says.

 

[bmjackson]

It further confirms Job’s heart was seriously in the wrong for thinking that God was being unjust to him.

Finally in the last chapter of Job, he repents of his sin, is forgiven and the blessings of God are bestowed on him again.
If Job was blameless there would be no need for him to repent.

Job thought that God was being unjust to him because he was blameless at the start. Normally the blameless ones, do not suffer the withdrawal of God's presence.

In the same manner Jesus cried out on the cross Why hast Thou forsaken me? Job was asking the same question. He repented of asking God the question after God displayed His right not to answer it.

 

[granpa]

Outline of the Bible/Job - Religion-wiki

 

[Setyoufree]

If Job was blameless there would be no need for him to repent.

Bingo!

 

[Setyoufree]

Except that Job was agreeing with the statement God had already made about him.

No, not true. Job didn't know of what was taking place in heaven between Satan & God.

Can you explain to me why God had been providing special protection to Job if Job were no more righteous or blameless than anyone else?

MATT 5:45 For he (God) makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[Setyoufree]

If you try to argue here that God didn't mean what He said, you can argue a thousand other places iin scripture by the same false logic that God doesn't mean what He says.

When you single out one verse and build a doctrine around it most always leads to error.

Take Matt 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, (how perfect?) just as your Father in heaven is perfect"

If I take this by itself and I do not look at the context of Matthew chapter 5, I would by default end up teaching salvation by works. I would end up teaching that in order to get to heaven that I must be as Holy as God is Holy.

BTW, God meant what He said. God was presenting Job's claims of himself to Satan.

God could not represent Job in Himself (i.e., Job covered by the righteousness of God) because Job was to busy claiming his own righteousness. Keep in mind the following:

Job 32:2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned ; against Job his anger burned because he (Job) justified himself before God.

 

[Setyoufree]

(Job) justified himself before God. [Job 32:2]

"Does He (God) not see my ways and count my every step?" [Job 31:4]

"Let the Almighty (God) answer me; let my accuser (God) put his indictment in writing." [Job 31:35]

In other words Job insisted that God show him in writing were he was imperfect.

In Job's eyes he was a blameless man and so he justified his righteousness right up until Elihu comes up on the scene.

 

[Setyoufree]

Elihu to Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf..."

Elihu was sent in God's behalf. Job clearly had a problem and Elihu, through God, had pointed it out. Job was guilty of self-righteousness, which is unrighteousness before God.

Here's what Christ said of the self-righteous:

Matt 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness....

 

[MJohn7]

Bingo!

A bishop is supposed to be blameless, yet hes not sinless, hes mature and hardly ever sins, i assume. But kill the mans family and surely he would say... why? what did i do?