Judge Orders Pregnant Texas Woman Off Life Support

[South Bound]

the baby has multiple health issues. It is unlikely to survive.

Isn't that what doctors and hospitals are for?

Did you read the OP? The woman is dead. The baby has disorders that will lead to its death. Keeping a body alive while the spirit has fled is barbaric.

First of all, if the "spirit has fled", then what's wrong with keeping the body alive? Isn't the body just a shell?

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you pro-abortion? Isn't it a little hypocritical to say that it's "barbaric" to keep someone alive, but then turn around and support tearing little babies apart, limb by limb, while they're still alive and without benefit of anesthesia?

The laws on privacy are not going to allow the hospital to comment directly. Nonetheless, the attorneys have quoted from the medical records - which were created by doctors. Attorneys: Brain-dead woman's fetus is "distinctly abnormal" - CBS News

Could you please define "abnormal" for us and explain how you quantify normality and what level of "normality" one must posses before they're considered worthy to live?

I wish they would just leave the husband and family to make the decision. The husband obviously loved his wife, and they had a verbal agreement on what would happen if either of them was ever in this position.

The problem is that they didn't take into account the life of the baby and the baby's right to live.

I don't understand why the hospital continues to fight the husband's wishes. What do they get out of this?

Maybe, as doctors, they recognize that if the mother dies, the baby will die.

The woman's body is only alive due to the life support system keeping it that way. The fetus was growing, however it was already malformed verging on nonviable and without brain function it would likely only get worse.

OK. Let's say that's true. Are people with limited brain function and physical deformities less worthy to live?

There was no sentence imposed on anyone. The judge ruled that the next of kin, rather then the state, gets to make the medical decisions for the woman.

No, there's no direct "sentence", but they know that if the woman dies, then the baby dies as a result.

The judge did not rule on if a person should die,

Not directly, but that would be the result.

they ruled that the state does not get to make medical decisions rather then the next of kin.

But the state makes decisions all the time regarding the safety and welfare of children.

No.

So then, why is that a valid argument in this case?

There was no indirect sentence the state was removed from, what should be, a private medical decision.

Actually, a judge made a ruling that the hospital has to honor the family's decision to let the mother die, in spite of the fact of Texas implied consent laws, and in spite of the Hippocratic Oath taken by doctors, and knowing that the mother's death would result in the baby's death.

Once they are born. The medical decisions in this case relate to woman and her husband acting as her medical proxy.

First of all, not always "only after they're born". Pregnant drug addicts have been taken into custody to ensure they would not endanger their unborn baby. Other restrictions have been placed on pregnant women with similar issues.

The government pumps billions of dollars each year into pre-natal health.

Second, the woman is not the issue. She's already brain-dead. The issue now is the consequences of her death on her child.

The baby never had any chance to be born alive, and I'm sure the hospital knew that all along.

Why not? There are many precedents of a baby being born to a brain-dead mother.

 

[Desk trauma]

OK. Let's say that's true. Are people with limited brain function and physical deformities less worthy to live?

No.

No, there's no direct "sentence", but they know that if the woman dies, then the baby dies as a result.

There was no indirect sentence the state was removed from, what should be, a private medical decision.

But the state makes decisions all the time regarding the safety and welfare of children.

Once they are born. The medical decisions in this case relate to woman and her husband acting as her medical proxy.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The baby was without oxygen after the mother suffered her malady long enough to have major birth defects now and in utero.

Which really has no bearing unless they're fatal. I still have yet to hear from a DOCTOR the prognosis.

Rather than debate this as a matter of what would we who are healthy do, when its not us and we're speculating, I think we who are Christians here should consider that tomorrow is the day this woman and her baby are taken off life support.

Tomorrow!

What will you be doing when the plug is pulled on these two people?

I'll be praying then as I am now.

Join me?

It is well and good to pray, but that doesn't prohibit discussion and debate.

I know that I have made it perfectly clear what I want done, and I've considered probably every possible case. If I'm pregnant like this, I want the baby to live. If I'm already dead, I won't care, and my family will very much to have that baby in the family.

Yes, we can pray, but let's not stick our heads in the sand while we're praying.

 

[Lovely Jar]

It is well and good to pray, but that doesn't prohibit discussion and debate.

I think this thread provides evidence of that.

My remarks, that you demonstrate were necessary, relates to the fact that we're all discussing the what if's as people for whom this situation is not personal at all. We're projecting nonsense because it isn't happening to us and all we can do is opine from an impersonal pov.

What isn't evident in the midst of that however is the Christians here offering prayer! As readily as they offer judgment and opinion.

 

[Hetta]

I still have yet to hear from a DOCTOR the prognosis

The laws on privacy are not going to allow the hospital to comment directly. Nonetheless, the attorneys have quoted from the medical records - which were created by doctors. Attorneys: Brain-dead woman's fetus is "distinctly abnormal" - CBS News

[The attorneys for the family] based their statement on medical records they received from the hospital.

"According to the medical records we have been provided, the fetus is distinctly abnormal," the attorneys said. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

The attorneys said the fetus also has fluid building up inside the skull and possibly has a heart problem.

Again, that is from the medical record, created by a doctor.

 

[Hetta]

I wish they would just leave the husband and family to make the decision. The husband obviously loved his wife, and they had a verbal agreement on what would happen if either of them was ever in this position.

Erick Munoz said his wife, a fellow paramedic, was clear with him before he found her unconscious on Nov. 26: If she ever fell into this kind of condition, pull life support.

What they should have done was get a directive written up, and I would highly recommend that everyone do this. My husband and I have all this kind of thing down on paper, so we don't just know what each other wishes, we have our wishes typed up in black and white, witnessed, and sealed by an attorney.

 

[Hetta]

Marlise Munoz's life support removal order mulled by hospital - World - CBC News

I so feel for Erick Munoz.

"Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack, and her legs are nothing more than dead weight," Munoz said.

I don't understand why the hospital continues to fight the husband's wishes. What do they get out of this?

 

[Hetta]

I hope people are also praying for Erick. Erick, Marlise's parents and family - all concerned.

 

[Glass*Soul]

"According to the medical records we have been provided, the fetus is distinctly abnormal," the attorneys said. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

The attorneys said the fetus also has fluid building up inside the skull and possibly has a heart problem.

Munoz described in a signed affidavit filed Thursday what it was like to see her now: her glassy, "soulless" eyes; and the smell of her perfume replaced by what he knows to be the smell of death. He said he's tried to hold her hand but can't.
"Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack, and her legs are nothing more than dead weight," Munoz said.

Continuing this does not strike me as an act of respect for life. It is a horror. It is the very horror Munoz and his wife had agreed to avoid, but have been prevented from doing so by this hospital.

 

[Glass*Soul]

The wording of most of the news articles regarding the judge's decision is misleading. If you read the actual order, it is to grant the plaintiff's [Mr. Munoz'] motion. It is Mr. Munoz who moved that life support be removed and his request has been granted.

From here: Update: Judge orders JPS Hospital to withdraw life support for brain-dead pregnant woman | Dallas Morning News

What's more, the hospital has agreed that the fetus is not viable:

About two hours before today’s hearing, attorneys representing Erick Munoz and John Peter Smith Hospital filed a joint document in which they agree that “at the time of this hearing, the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable.” It is the first time the hospital has acknowledged what Erick Munoz has maintained all along.

The hospital has also agreed that Mrs. Munoz is brain dead:

John Peter Smith Hospital acknowledged Thursday that Marlise Munoz, the woman being kept on life support against the wishes of her husband, is brain dead. The acknowledgement came in a court filing late Thursday before a hearing to be held Friday afternoon where a judge is being asked to decide whether she should be removed from life support.

The poorly worded Texas law that brought this all on was never meant to keep a brain dead body operating to incubate a non-viable fetus.

 

[Hetta]

But isn't the hospital still "musing" and may still fight the order? That's what I got from reading around this morning. It seemed that a final decision won't be made until tomorrow.

Moral of the story - if your spouse gets seriously ill in Tx - don't take him/her into hospital because then the hospital will "own" them. :/

 

[South Bound]

the baby has multiple health issues. It is unlikely to survive.

Isn't that what doctors and hospitals are for?

Did you read the OP? The woman is dead. The baby has disorders that will lead to its death. Keeping a body alive while the spirit has fled is barbaric.

First of all, if the "spirit has fled", then what's wrong with keeping the body alive? Isn't the body just a shell?

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you pro-abortion? Isn't it a little hypocritical to say that it's "barbaric" to keep someone alive, but then turn around and support tearing little babies apart, limb by limb, while they're still alive and without benefit of anesthesia?

The laws on privacy are not going to allow the hospital to comment directly. Nonetheless, the attorneys have quoted from the medical records - which were created by doctors. Attorneys: Brain-dead woman's fetus is "distinctly abnormal" - CBS News

Could you please define "abnormal" for us and explain how you quantify normality and what level of "normality" one must posses before they're considered worthy to live?

I wish they would just leave the husband and family to make the decision. The husband obviously loved his wife, and they had a verbal agreement on what would happen if either of them was ever in this position.

The problem is that they didn't take into account the life of the baby and the baby's right to live.

I don't understand why the hospital continues to fight the husband's wishes. What do they get out of this?

Maybe, as doctors, they recognize that if the mother dies, the baby will die.

Moral of the story - if your spouse gets seriously ill in Tx - don't take him/her into hospital because then the hospital will "own" them. :/

Er, not quite.

The issue isn't that the hospital owns the mother, but that the hospital recognizes that removing the mother from life support will result in the death of the child.

 

[Glass*Soul]

But isn't the hospital still "musing" and may still fight the order? That's what I got from reading around this morning. It seemed that a final decision won't be made until tomorrow.

Moral of the story - if your spouse gets seriously ill in Tx - don't take him/her into hospital because then the hospital will "own" them. :/

Oh my.

Do they imagine that if they can only just pull that fetus out of the womb still technically alive at some point that they have done something heroic? It's little heart is malformed, so no doubt it will have to go right onto life support itself. Then will they have somehow respected life, or Texas law, or some absolute principle regarding a right to life that in itself has no regard for humanity, no mercy?

 

[Hetta]

Oh my.

Do they imagine that if they can only just pull that fetus out of the womb still technically alive at some point that they have done something heroic? It's little heart is malformed, so no doubt it will have to go right onto life support itself. Then will they have somehow respected life, or Texas law, or some absolute principle regarding a right to life that in itself has no regard for humanity, no mercy?

Basically, yes I think.

 

[SharonL]

If I heard it right - they just came on with a news alert that they had removed her from life support. There will be more later. Not real sure I heard it right.

 

[Supreme]

It's a very sad case, and for the husband, must have been heart wrenching to make. I don't think that being inside a dead mother would have done the baby much good.

 

[Hetta]

Yes. They removed her from the ventilator.

Texas hospital to take pregnant, brain-dead woman off ventilator - CNN.com

 

[Hetta]

I hope that he is able to mourn his lost wife and baby now.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Glass*Soul, thanks for the link due the statement that the fetus is not viable. That makes a difference.

 

[wing2000]

What they should have done was get a directive written up, and I would highly recommend that everyone do this. My husband and I have all this kind of thing down on paper, so we don't just know what each other wishes, we have our wishes typed up in black and white, witnessed, and sealed by an attorney.

...good advice.