Is masturbation without inappropriate contentography or lustful thoughts a sin?

[CounselorForChrist]

One cannot touch without sinful sexual pleasure.

I feel like this topic is going in loops. And that quote is what confuses christians because what one christians thinks, they assume its how all christians think. What I am trying to say is if you need sinful sexual pleasure to MB, then thats you. It doesn't mean everyone else needs it. Just like if someone yells at you want to literally kill them, thats you, not everyone else.

Lets talk about what leads to MB. Arousal. What leads to arousal? Well this is where you quote is wrong. Arousal can happen by just more then sinful sexual pleasure. You can stimulate it with your hands. Your silk boxers might stimulate it. Even getting into a deep sleep causes an arousal.

Now lets look at what happens after arousal. MB. Can you MB without looking at sinful sexual things? Yes. Both sexes can do it. Its just a sensitive part of your body that can be used. Its not like it "sees" sinful things and say "Well I can only MB because of that!".

Now lets just pretend MB is a sin as you say. What does that mean for the person that has an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in their sleep... a "wet dream". Did they sin? Did they MB? How would it even be sin if they weren't even realizing they were doing it? Heres comes the big one. I am married. If my wife and I MB, is it still a sin? If not then how come? MB is a sin yes? Thats where saying MB is a sin becomes a clouded subject.

The truth is getting aroused is not sinful. MB is not sinful. Its what you "choose" to when MB that makes it sinful. If you choose to look at inappropriate content, think of someone...etc. Then your sinning. If you instead choose just to MB and not really think of anything except for the feeling of MB then its not a sin.

If you feel convicted of even that being a sin, then its what God is telling you is a sin based on what He knows about you. Where as for others they may not be told its a sin because He feels they are for lack of better words "mature" enough about it to not turn it into a sin. MB can become a sin also if someone turns it into an idol or if they choose MB more then they choose having sex with their spouse.

So thats my view on it. There is literally nothing in the bible that says its a sin or that its not a sin. Its a grey area. Which is why conviction will tell if its a sin for you.

 

[DiceRider]

What Bible verses do you have to prove that masturbation isn't sin? Because I can give Bible verses that prove you wrong.

Please do, where it actually says masturbation is a sin. In those words. I'll await..

 

[Jonathan95]

The bible can be quoted to mean or say just about anything.

Masturbation isn't a sin.

Please do, where it actually says masturbation is a sin. In those words. I'll await..

Read my post #62 here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7794707-7/#post64799977

"But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the sperm on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also." (Genesis 38:9-10 ESV).

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness." (Romans 6:12-13 ESV).

"Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul." (1 Peter 2:11 ESV).

 

[kevinmaynard]

So when I have sex with my sister in law Finnish inside so God is pleased. What a silly stone age story that has no relevance to today.

 

[DiceRider]

Im sure the fact he was screwing his brothers wife is what made God angry, not the fact he pulled out and offloaded outside of her. Or to touch with impure thoughts, however the story went. So still no biblical proof of it being a sin I see.

 

[Jonathan95]

So when I have sex with my sister in law Finnish inside so God is pleased. What a silly stone age story that has no relevance to today.

How can you call it a silly stone age story? That's irreverent to say, thus sinful.

Im sure the fact he was screwing his brothers wife is what made God angry, not the fact he pulled out and offloaded outside of her. Or to touch with impure thoughts, however the story went. So still no biblical proof of it being a sin I see.

It's sin. How can one touch, yet not feel convicted of sin, and feel guilty? Maybe if his heart is so hardened.

Compare:

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

SOURCE: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/r...on/contraception-the-bible-and-early-fathers/

The Accepted Definition of Onanism from the Oxford Dictionary.

Onanism: Coitus interruptus, unnatural sexual intercourse or masturbation. In the Jewish tradition, onanism is associated with the biblical figure Onan who was condemned by God for spilling his seed ‘on the ground’ (Genesis 38. 7–10).​

The traditional interpretation of this passage is a divine condemnation of the contraceptive act. For example the great Saint Jerome directly connected Onan's spilling of his seed as the act for which he was killed. It was not ambiguous to him.

"But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?" (Saint Jerome Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393])

Saint Augustine also directly referenced Onan in connection with this particular sinful act.
“Intercourse even with one's own legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of judah, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”

It appears that even St. Augustine believed Onan was married according to this text as well.

SOURCE: http://catholicchampion.blogspot.se/2009/08/genesis-38-and-sin-of-onan.html

 

[Reeniee]

But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the sperm on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also." (Genesis 38:9-10 ESV)

How can a passage about Onan having sex with someone show that masturbation is wrong? That seems like a crazy jump of logic.

 

[dayhiker]

I think all the above comments on the story of Onan miss what the story is telling us.


Onan was the second son of Judah. After his older brother Er died, Onan was required by the tradition of levirate marriage to marry Er's widow Tamar. According to Gen.38:7-10, when he had sexual intercourse with Tamar he "spilt his seed upon the ground" because the resulting child would be considered his late brother's, not his. In response to the transgression of disobedience, God killed Onan.


Its my understanding that a brother couldn’t be forced to fulfill the levirate marriage rule. But once he agreed its was his obligation to raise up the widows children to carry on his brothers name. Doing that meant that they would get the inheritance. Since Onan was the 2nd brother he would gett a very small inheritance compared to the Er the 1st born. The father had the final say in everything the family did including the extended family. This was even more important than the land and flocks the 1st born would also receive. Now when Er died, Onan moves up tp get the 1st born's inheritance. But if he fulfills the levirate, while he will get the 1st born blessing his kids wouldn’t get it as it will go the Er’s sons that he raise up thru Tamar. So I see the main violation that God kills Onan for is promising to raise up Er an heir, but then stealing it for Er's son by not getting her pregnant. Spilling his seed on the ground is the way he used to appear to be going in unto his brother’s wife to have children and to fulfilling his obligation, the commitment he made to raise up his brothers children, when in reality he was stealing the inheritance for his own sons.

 

[Joykins]

Im sure the fact he was screwing his brothers wife is what made God angry, not the fact he pulled out and offloaded outside of her. Or to touch with impure thoughts, however the story went. So still no biblical proof of it being a sin I see.

He was supposed to marry his brother's widow to provide a child to be his brother's son. That's why he was punished, because he found a workaround.

 

[Jonathan95]

How can a passage about Onan having sex with someone show that masturbation is wrong? That seems like a crazy jump of logic.

I think all the above comments on the story of Onan miss what the story is telling us.


Onan was the second son of Judah. After his older brother Er died, Onan was required by the tradition of levirate marriage to marry Er's widow Tamar. According to Gen.38:7-10, when he had sexual intercourse with Tamar he "spilt his seed upon the ground" because the resulting child would be considered his late brother's, not his. In response to the transgression of disobedience, God killed Onan.

Its my understanding that a brother couldn’t be forced to fulfill the levirate marriage rule. But once he agreed its was his obligation to raise up the widows children to carry on his brothers name. Doing that meant that they would get the inheritance. Since Onan was the 2nd brother he would gett a very small inheritance compared to the Er the 1st born. The father had the final say in everything the family did including the extended family. This was even more important than the land and flocks the 1st born would also receive. Now when Er died, Onan moves up tp get the 1st born's inheritance. But if he fulfills the levirate, while he will get the 1st born blessing his kids wouldn’t get it as it will go the Er’s sons that he raise up thru Tamar. So I see the main violation that God kills Onan for is promising to raise up Er an heir, but then stealing it for Er's son by not getting her pregnant. Spilling his seed on the ground is the way he used to appear to be going in unto his brother’s wife to have children and to fulfilling his obligation, the commitment he made to raise up his brothers children, when in reality he was stealing the inheritance for his own sons.

He was supposed to marry his brother's widow to provide a child to be his brother's son. That's why he was punished, because he found a workaround.

So a great doctor of the Church St. Jerome interpreted it wrong? If he held that interpretation of Genesis 3, most likely many other Church fathers also held that interpretation, especially since many of them condemned contraception.

 

[Dagger311]

This has turned into a two-edged sword for me.

The longer I go without it, the more I lust after more immoral things.

What can you do? In the event of your willpower not being strong enough? Choose "The lesser of two evils", or try to hold out, only to fall in a deeper hole to drag yourself out of.?

 

[Jonathan95]

This has turned into a two-edged sword for me.

The longer I go without it, the more I lust after more immoral things.

What can you do? In the event of your willpower not being strong enough? Choose "The lesser of two evils", or try to hold out, only to fall in a deeper hole to drag yourself out of.?

Don't deceive yourself. You cannot be delivered from sin by committing another sin instead.

 

[Dagger311]

Don't deceive yourself. You cannot be delivered from sin by committing another sin instead.

But is masturbation really a sin? Can we condemn it, when God felt no need to? I harm no one, use no inappropriate contentography, and lust after no one.

Also, as I'm sure everyone knows, the thoughts become stronger the longer you go without it. It ends up being all I can think about.

 

[AT7iLA]

Matthew 5

Adultery in the Heart (Jesus Speaking)

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

 

[selfinflikted]

I'm sorry, but are you actually suggesting what I think you're suggesting with that, AT7iLA?

 

[Dagger311]

I believe I've seen that passage quoted 100 times in forums like this.

I don't look at anyone with lust.

Who's to say masturbation is a sin? Who's to say it's grounds for "plucking it out and casting it away"?

My point is, I use no inappropriate contentography, just to be blunt, my hand and about three minutes. God describes very many different things about sex, why did he remain quiet here?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

He was supposed to marry his brother's widow to provide a child to be his brother's son. That's why he was punished, because he found a workaround.

EXactly.

 

[andy b]

This has turned into a two-edged sword for me.

The longer I go without it, the more I lust after more immoral things.

What can you do? In the event of your willpower not being strong enough? Choose "The lesser of two evils", or try to hold out, only to fall in a deeper hole to drag yourself out of.?

why walk around in the dark if theres a light switch there

 

[Jonathan95]

But is masturbation really a sin? Can we condemn it, when God felt no need to? I harm no one, use no inappropriate contentography, and lust after no one.

Also, as I'm sure everyone knows, the thoughts become stronger the longer you go without it. It ends up being all I can think about.

Just because masturbation isn't condemned explicitly, "You shall not touch"

Doesn't mean it isn't condemned indirectly.

Think how long the Bible would be if there'd be a long list of sins.

Some might think the Bible is not clear on the issue, but that's why we also have apostolic tradition and the magisterium.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Just because masturbation isn't condemned explicitly, "You shall not touch"

Doesn't mean it isn't condemned indirectly.

Think how long the Bible would be if there'd be a long list of sins.

Some might think the Bible is not clear on the issue, but that's why we also have apostolic tradition and the magisterium.

I have no idea what those last words mean. All that aside the bible makes it clear what things are sins. And what things can lead to sins. If we start assuming whats a sin it would never work because what one person thins is a sin may not be to another. If I said being at this forum indirectly is a sin you would say thats not accurate. But the internets biggest thing is inappropriate content. So by using the internet you are indirectly supporting inappropriate content.

Masturbation not indirectly a sin. It can lead to sin. But in and of itself it is not a sin. Proof of that has been pointed out. But like most christians, if one person feels God telling them its a sin, they assume it must be a sin for all. Thats not how it works. Take gaming for example. I was a gaming addict. To the point of I didn't care what I played, or for how long, or if I played it and didn't bother with church, the bible, get togethers..etc.

But the Holy Spirit convicted me of it and said I needed to not make it my goal in life and to focus on other things. Only game a little bit and to play less violent, less swearing filled games. Nor for someone else, that may not be a sin because they aren't as obsessed about it.

And of course there is the fact different denominations believe in different things. As a christian I don't believe in gambling. Its a sin. But when I visited my friend at his baptist church they don't even allow card games like solitaire or board games like monopoly or checkers because they say its gambling and a sin. Which obviously checkers is not a sin.

Overall this is a complex subject. We all have convictions. And this topic of MB has always been a grey area where the bible doesn't really say if its a sin. Its why we have to just listen to what God is telling us about OUR MB.