Who has read the Book of Mormon?

[LegacyJB]

When I ask this question I don't mean just flip through a few pages nor do I mean get an overview on it from others. Who has actually read it with an unbiased and open heart? Anyone who has truly read it would know it is true.

Do you agree or disagree with these verses? No sidestepping like some people tend to do, focus on these verses. Do they testify of truth or do they not?

Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Alma 22:14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

2 Nephi 2:8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 31:10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

3 Nephi 27:14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

Helaman 5:12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

 

[Ran77]

I have. Many times.

 

[Moodshadow]

So have I, and there was a time when I believed it. But no longer.

 

[drstevej]

Anyone who has truly read it would know it is true.

And anyone who does not agree is accused of not truly reading it with an unbiased and open heart.

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

 

[drstevej]

So have I, and there was a time when I believed it. But no longer.

I believe you to be fully honest in this statement. Your experience contradicts the OP's axiom.

 

[LegacyJB]

And anyone who does not agree is accused of not truly reading it with an unbiased and open heart.

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Good job on something you got from someone else. How many people use this? I've lost count. Instead of the one verse you need to read that with the 2 verses before and after. The dark skin was not the curse. If you actually take it in the context it's in instead of just repeating what every critic says you'd know this. The curse was being cut off from God. The dark skin was a marking and nothing more, not the curse. Have you heard of identical twins? I hope so. They are 2 people who look exactly alike and are blood siblings. The dark skin was like dressing a set of twins differently so people can tell the twins apart. Will you take the verse in it's correct context or continue to twit the word of the Lord?

 

[LegacyJB]

So have I, and there was a time when I believed it. But no longer.

We only learn of it's truthfulness through the Holy Ghost. This means you let something be more important to you than an answer you received from God. God said it's true and then you encountered a trial so you ran. There's always a back to the fold of God.

 

[Rawtheran]

When I ask this question I don't mean just flip through a few pages nor do I mean get an overview on it from others. Who has actually read it with an unbiased and open heart? Anyone who has truly read it would know it is true.

Do you agree or disagree with these verses? No sidestepping like some people tend to do, focus on these verses. Do they testify of truth or do they not?

Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Alma 22:14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

2 Nephi 2:8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Nephi 31:10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

3 Nephi 27:14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

Helaman 5:12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

I have nothing against Mormons personally, but I'm not really convinced that they are a true form of Christianity. For one thing a lot of their doctrine does not make sense, and contradicts what mainstream Christianity. For one thing they are a nontrinitarian view when it comes to God, and when they say that there is a human named Moroni, who later becomes an Angel, and comes back to communicate with Joseph Smith. There is nothing in the Old or New Testament that supports the idea of humans becoming angels after death, if anything it portrays humans, and angels created differently for different purposes. For example God just simply said for the angels to come into being, and they were created, but God created man differently by creating him out of the dust of the Earth, and breathed the spirit of life in him.

There is also little to none archeological evidence for the existence of the Civilizations that are described in the Book of Mormon, and you would think that there would be if they actually once existed especially with the technology described like chariots, swords, buildings, armor, etc. DNA testing has also shown that the populations described in the Book of Mormon cannot be traced. The historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon is also called into great question far more then the Old or New Testament.

 

[LegacyJB]

I have nothing against Mormons personally, but I'm not really convinced that they are a true form of Christianity. For one thing a lot of their doctrine does not make sense, and contradicts what mainstream Christianity. For one thing they are a nontrinitarian view when it comes to God, and when they say that there is a human named Moroni, who later becomes an Angel, and comes back to communicate with Joseph Smith. There is nothing in the Old or New Testament that supports the idea of humans becoming angels after death, if anything it portrays humans, and angels created differently for different purposes. For example God just simply said for the angels to come into being, and they were created, but God created man differently by creating him out of the dust of the Earth, and breathed the spirit of life in him.

There is also little to none archeological evidence for the existence of the Civilizations that are described in the Book of Mormon, and you would think that there would be if they actually once existed especially with the technology described like chariots, swords, buildings, armor, etc. DNA testing has also shown that the populations described in the Book of Mormon cannot be traced. The historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon is also called into great question far more then the Old or New Testament.

We aren't trinitarians because we believe in what the scriptures say about God's nature, not creeds. They're not authoritative. I could go over the history of how the trinity heresy was created by man but you can look that one up. Council of Nicea. It was nowhere near a revelation. At the time this was created the church denied further revelation.

Funny, most mainstream Christians I know believe we'll become angels. Besides, an angel doesn't have just one definition. One could call Abraham an angel. An angel is also simply a messenger of God.

We weren't created out of nothing. Poof, and here you are! Not how it happened,

About evidence, first that are tons of evidence for many things in the Book of Mormon. If I had time I'd post them all. However I have a life. 2nd, evidence doesn't mean anything when it comes to things if God. Why do you believe in the Bible, faith or evidence? If evidence didn't exist would you still believe? I already know you wouldn't. If you require evidence for one thing you require it for everything else in the same category. In this case religion. Since you believe it's true because of evidence instead of faith that means you believe in He who it testifies of because of evidence and not faith, even Jesus Christ. Rather than focus on what you falsely thing is wrong with others you need to take a deep look at yourself and examine your faith. Ask yourself this question: if evidence for the Bible didn't exist would I believe it? If not, would I believe in Jesus Christ?

You don't think we're Christians but I know we are. Being a Christian isn't defined by believing in the "trinity" or even by believing in the Bible. The Bible didn't exist when the ancient prophets and apostles were alive nor did they have the trinity theory. Does the mean they weren't Christian? By your definition of a Christian they wouldn't be. A Christian is simply one who believes in Jesus Christ being the Son of God.

 

[drstevej]

Can you point me to a lexicon for Reformed Egyptian?
There is one for Hittite.

 

[Moodshadow]

We only learn of it's truthfulness through the Holy Ghost. This means you let something be more important to you than an answer you received from God. God said it's true and then you encountered a trial so you ran. There's always a back to the fold of God.

I believed with all my heart that I learned of it's [sic] truthfulness from the Holy Ghost - believed it for 39 years, in fact. Talked the talk, walked the walk, made and lived the covenants and taught the doctrine to countless people during those years, including my own seven children. Then I quite accidentally happened across real LDS history - as opposed to the Cloroxed versions you see in LDS-authorized publications. It nearly killed me - for a while I actually prayed that it would! - but ultimately I emerged victorious instead. Now I believe the Book of Mormon to be a work of fiction - the product of the very fertile imagination of Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

[drstevej]

We only learn of it's truthfulness through the Holy Ghost. This means you let something be more important to you than an answer you received from God. God said it's true and then you encountered a trial so you ran. There's always a back to the fold of God.

How would one know this when they never met or talked to the person?

 

[Jake255]

Funny, most mainstream Christians I know believe we'll become angels. Besides, an angel doesn't have just one definition. One could call Abraham an angel. An angel is also simply a messenger of God.

Absurd, I know of no one who believes we become angels when we die, this is simply not true and 'most mainstream Christians' do not believe this. No, we can not call Abraham an angel.

About evidence, first that are tons of evidence for many things in the Book of Mormon. If I had time I'd post them all. However I have a life. 2nd, evidence doesn't mean anything when it comes to things if God. Why do you believe in the Bible, faith or evidence? If evidence didn't exist would you still believe? I already know you wouldn't. If you require evidence for one thing you require it for everything else in the same category. In this case religion. Since you believe it's true because of evidence instead of faith that means you believe in He who it testifies of because of evidence and not faith, even Jesus Christ. Rather than focus on what you falsely thing is wrong with others you need to take a deep look at yourself and examine your faith. Ask yourself this question: if evidence for the Bible didn't exist would I believe it? If not, would I believe in Jesus Christ?

There is no evidence which supports the Book of Mormon - none. The mention of wheels in the book predates the actual invention of the wheel.

There should be evidence for the Book of Mormon if it really occurred as it says, but there isn't. There is evidence for things in the Bible because those things really happened.

You don't think we're Christians but I know we are. Being a Christian isn't defined by believing in the "trinity" or even by believing in the Bible. The Bible didn't exist when the ancient prophets and apostles were alive nor did they have the trinity theory. Does the mean they weren't Christian? By your definition of a Christian they wouldn't be. A Christian is simply one who believes in Jesus Christ being the Son of God.

Satan KNOWS Jesus is the Son of God - so no, a Christian is simply NOT one who believes Jesus is the Son of God and this is why the book of mormon offers nothing in the way of true Christianity.

BTW, yes, I've read the book - it's ridiculous.

 

[drstevej]

We aren't trinitarians because we believe in what the scriptures say about God's nature, not creeds.

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

 

[mmksparbud]

Read it---Then I read this--Gal 1:8 "Let God's curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about: yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other Gospel than the one you welcomed, let God's curse fall upon them."

I can no longer even remember what I read anymore. But this angel that was supposed to have appeared with the golden tablets said things that were not according to scripture. I remember reading it, and the message of salvation was totally different than what the bible said including about life in heaven for the saved--all these wives that men will have in heaven when Christ said in heaven there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage, but we will be like the angels. Christ said no marriage in heaven, the book of Mormon was saying men would have many wives. That was just one thing, there were several other points,I can't remember them all, including the nature of Christ that was not scriptural so I got rid of it.

 

[LegacyJB]

Read it---Then I read this--Gal 1:8 "Let God's curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about: yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other Gospel than the one you welcomed, let God's curse fall upon them."

I can no longer even remember what I read anymore. But this angel that was supposed to have appeared with the golden tablets said things that were not according to scripture. I remember reading it, and the message of salvation was totally different than what the bible said including about life in heaven for the saved--all these wives that men will have in heaven when Christ said in heaven there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage, but we will be like the angels. Christ said no marriage in heaven, the book of Mormon was saying men would have many wives. That was just one thing, there were several other points,I can't remember them all, including the nature of Christ that was not scriptural so I got rid of it.

No, you're suppose to use 6-9. Haven't you read enough stuff from your fellow critics? Use the right verses. These refer to the great apostasy. Sorry kid. The message of salvation is the same as in the Bible. The Book of Mormon says grace through Christ. If that's different from the Bible then all of Christianity has messed up. Go back and read both. Christ said marriages wouldn't take place, he didn't say no one will be married. So God can break the bands of death but is powerless to make a marriage eternal? By your own belief you believe you will never have your wife as your wife, parents as parents, etc. That's not a heaven, that's a hell.

 

[LegacyJB]

Absurd, I know of no one who believes we become angels when we die, this is simply not true and 'most mainstream Christians' do not believe this. No, we can not call Abraham an angel.


There is no evidence which supports the Book of Mormon - none. The mention of wheels in the book predates the actual invention of the wheel.

There should be evidence for the Book of Mormon if it really occurred as it says, but there isn't. There is evidence for things in the Bible because those things really happened.

Satan KNOWS Jesus is the Son of God - so no, a Christian is simply NOT one who believes Jesus is the Son of God and this is why the book of mormon offers nothing in the way of true Christianity.

BTW, yes, I've read the book - it's ridiculous.

An angel is also a messenger of God. If Abraham wasn't a messenger I guess he wasn't a prophet according to you. Sorry Abraham but your'vebeen booted from your prophetic calling according to Jake.

Most mainstreams do believe that and get it from a reference another critic on the thread refers to.

Evidence, already went over that. It's there and a lot of it. Even if I were to list you'd say "no it ain't". You proved my point. You have no faith in scripture or Christ. You believe in both historically and that's as far as your belief goes.

 

[Jake255]

An angel is also a messenger of God. If Abraham wasn't a messenger I guess he wasn't a prophet according to you. Sorry Abraham but your'vebeen booted from your prophetic calling according to Jake.

Most mainstreams do believe that and get it from a reference another critic on the thread refers to.

Evidence, already went over that. It's there and a lot of it. Even if I were to list you'd say "no it ain't". You proved my point. You have no faith in scripture or Christ. You believe in both historically and that's as far as your belief goes.

Are you serious? An angel and a prophet are not the same thing, no matter how much you want to twist the Word of God and the meanings of words. Abraham was a man.

You are mistaken, mainstream Christianity does NOT teach that we will become angels - nowhere is it taught in the Bible. You should do some research on what mainstream Christianity actually teaches because it's obvious you are unaware.

I have faith in Christ - period. Adding additional books to God's Word is a grave danger and I will pray that God will open your eyes.

 

[RevelationTestament]

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

I love it when people use this to try to say LDS are trinitarian...
how little they truly know of what that actually means....
what it really means is that they believe extra-biblical creeds about the nature of God and Jesus Christ....
1. That the Father and Son are "one substance" or homoousious according to the Nicene Creed promulgated under a pontifex maximus emperor who wasn't baptized which is also contrary to an earlier council held in Antioch which excommunicated a bishop who used it pertaining to God and ruled "homoousious" was heretical.
2. That Christ was begotten "before all ages/worlds" rather than by the oath of the Father who told Him "this DAY I have begotten thee" per Psalms and Hebrews.
3. Or if they choose to believe later creeds instead that Christ is "eternally begotten."
4. Or if they choose to believe the Creed from Constantinople that the Holy Ghost is also consubstantial with God or has "homoousious" rather than the Nicene Creed which left it out.
5. Or if they choose to believe later creeds that the Son has always been "co-equal" despite his own words that the Father is Greater, and being the Son of El Elyon, the Most High God, not knowing all the plans of the Father but having to be told, deferring to the authority of the Father, stating that the Father gave peoples to Him, and gave authority to Him, etc, etc.
6. Or if they choose to believe later creeds that God is "one being in 3 persons".... a complete confounding of the Greek NT and the Hebrew OT...
although the Father has a soul, Is. 42:1, the Son has a soul, the Son has His own body, the Son has his own will which He submits to the Father in order to be One, etc....

 

[drstevej]

I posted to show LDS are inconsistent.

And here is an extra biblical creed for you to ponder:

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org