What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

[from scratch]

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. - Mark 16:1
Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. - Luke 23:56

There's the Bible's 'position' stripped to utter simplicity. Mary and her band of cohorts procured embalming spices between two sabbaths in the week. How do you reconcile your opinion with the chronology posited by the Bible?



You were the one who used huge fonts and alternate color to draw attention to the portion of Exodus 31:13 where God spoke "Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep". Now after making a big fuss about God's sabbaths in the plural, you've done an about face and discarded them.

This is theological suicide you've committed.

Hmmm! I think MK 16 needs a much closer examination.

I just don't see where 2 Sabbaths can be involved here.

Its interesting the KJV says had bought while other versions don't. I do understand how one could construe after the Sabbath or between Sabbaths. I have a problem with the sentence structure being anymore than dealing with a single Sabbath. So my question is does the Geek word used indicate past tense? Either way I don't see a difference. Why would they do nothing on an available day between Sabbaths? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[from scratch]

That is the same Sabbath not two.

So far in this issue I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Jewish days ended at sunset, and the new day began at the same sunset.

So, if Jesus was crucified on Wednesday? His soul entered the belly of the earth right after he gave up his spirit. That was still Wednesday. Day one.

He was already placed in the Tomb, just before the beginning of Thursday at that sunset. Night one.

And, then remained in the earth Thursday during daylight. Day two.

At sunset of Thursday began Friday. Night two.

Friday daytime came. Day three.

At Friday at sunset began the Saturday Sabbath. Night three.



Sometime before sunrise of the Saturday Sabbath Jesus rose from the grave.

That made three days and three nights as he promised.

Mary went to the tomb on the first day of the week (our Sunday). Jesus had been already risen.

Matthew 28:1

After the (regular) Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.



​

That Sabbath ended at Sunset Saturday. Sunday then began.


The first right after his crucifixion was the beginning of a Special Sabbath for the Passover. Then, one day off was Friday. Then the next Sabbath was the regular Saturday Sabbath.

Believers who have not been shown about the Special Sabbaths tend to get all tangled up in trying to explain how what we read can be truth.

John 19:31
​

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special
Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the
crosses during the (that) Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs
broken and the bodies taken down.



​

Now is it easy?

your counting of days would seem to throw out the 24 hour day!

first of all God's days, not "jewish" days, start at sunset and end at the next sunset - see gen 1. (i don't think there were any jews around when this was established)

so if Jesus was crucified on wednesday, He would have been buried between 3pm and sunset - review the biblical text.

in that case, we get:

in the tomb all night wednesday - one night

in the tomb all day thursday - one day

in the tomb all night thursday - two nights

in the tomb all day friday - two days

in the tomb all night friday - three nights

in the tomb saturday - three days

and the resurrection would have taken place sometime between 3pm and sunset that saturday - a sabbath resurrection!

that is what made three days and three nights as Messiah said, per matt 12:40!

 

[from scratch]

Mat. 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Does your conclusions completely fit?

Since Passover is on the 14th (New Moon calendar) why wouldn't it be the 7th day of the week?

 

[from scratch]

your counting of days would seem to throw out the 24 hour day!

first of all God's days, not "jewish" days, start at sunset and end at the next sunset - see gen 1. (i don't think there were any jews around when this was established)

so if Jesus was crucified on wednesday, He would have been buried between 3pm and sunset - review the biblical text.

in that case, we get:

in the tomb all night wednesday - one night

in the tomb all day thursday - one day

in the tomb all night thursday - two nights

in the tomb all day friday - two days

in the tomb all night friday - three nights

in the tomb saturday - three days

and the resurrection would have taken place sometime between 3pm and sunset that saturday - a sabbath resurrection!

that is what made three days and three nights as Messiah said, per matt 12:40!

To which I couldn't agree. If Jesus rose on the Sabbath why did He wait till Sunday to be seen?

 

[GenemZ]

I know for a fact and it is still observe to this day that: Friday is the preparation day. The bible said Jesus was Crucified laid in the tomb and that the next day was Sabbath. You have a problem with that, that is your business. I don't.

Elder, don't confuse you with the facts. When your mind is made up, its a mess.

Learn something for once!



Found a web page for the Jewish calendar that gives various years.

Year 1949 Calendar – Israel

The High Sabbath for the Passover can fall on a Thursday one year. Saturday the next. And, even on a Monday another! The Hebrew calendar does not work like our Gentile calendar!

For example.

1949 - Passover began on our April 14th = Thursday!

1948 - Passover began on our April 24th = Saturday!

1947 - Passover began on our April 6th = Sunday!



Jesus was crucified that year on a Wednesday. The Special Sabbath for that Passover was Thursday that year. Then, on Friday they prepared for the regular Sabbath. That is how Jesus was able to be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth and be risen before the first day of the week (day after the Sabbath day).

 

[GenemZ]

To which I couldn't agree. If Jesus rose on the Sabbath why did He wait till Sunday to be seen?

Because no one could travel to the tomb until the Sabbath was over.

 

[GenemZ]

your counting of days would seem to throw out the 24 hour day!

first of all God's days, not "jewish" days, start at sunset and end at the next sunset - see gen 1. (i don't think there were any jews around when this was established)

so if Jesus was crucified on wednesday, He would have been buried between 3pm and sunset - review the biblical text.

in that case, we get:

in the tomb all night wednesday - one night

in the tomb all day thursday - one day

in the tomb all night thursday - two nights

in the tomb all day friday - two days

in the tomb all night friday - three nights

in the tomb saturday - three days

and the resurrection would have taken place sometime between 3pm and sunset that saturday - a sabbath resurrection!

that is what made three days and three nights as Messiah said, per matt 12:40!

You are not working with the Jewish days. Once sunset came that day of the week ended and the new day began. At sunset Wednesday the day Thursday would begin in the darkness.

Jesus was not speaking of twenty four hour days. He spoke of daylight and darkness. Three "days" and three "nights." You have been thinking in terms of 24 hour days as we do today.

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so
the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


​

Jesus was not speaking in terms of 24 hour days.. But of darkness and light. If it were 24 hour days he would have simply said three days. But he specifically mentioned the time of daylight and darkness. Days and nights.

He had died on the Cross on Wednesday while it was yet daylight. At that point his soul left his body and entered the belly of the earth. One day in the belly of the earth.

Jesus did not say he would be dead three 24 hour days as we would think in terms of days. He specifically stated ... Three days and three nights. Light and darkness. Not 24 hour days.

Wednesday when he died became his Day One. At that sunset began darkness (night One). That darkness was also the beginning of the next day of the week Thursday for the Jews. ..and so forth.

At times we must to learn to think Jewish or the Gospels will really mess with our thinking. The Gospels was set in a Jewish culture, not the Roman one. We use a Roman type calendar. The Jewish calendar works differently than ours.

 

[VictorC]

Hmmm! I think MK 16 needs a much closer examination.

I just don't see where 2 Sabbaths can be involved here.

Neither Luke nor Mark provide a complete chronology of the events. It is only when you look at all the witness accounts that the chronology can be pieced together. Luke makes it clear that Mary and her band of cohorts waited until the sabbath was over with before they could buy embalming spices.

Its interesting the KJV says had bought while other versions don't. I do understand how one could construe after the Sabbath or between Sabbaths. I have a problem with the sentence structure being anymore than dealing with a single Sabbath. So my question is does the Geek word used indicate past tense? Either way I don't see a difference.

Both the KJV and 1982 NKJV I quoted use the past tense, consistent with the author's perspective when he wrote the account. That the KJV isn't using contemporary language is the only reason it isn't as clear. But, they both say the same thing.

The only doctrinal import that can be gleaned from the account was as a sign to the Jewish nation that witnessed the account firsthand. This was according to what Jesus told them, recorded by Matthew 12:

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Why would they do nothing on an available day between Sabbaths? Doesn't make sense to me.

Those women were busy beavers on Friday.
Using the chronology tradition posits with a Friday crucifixion leaves you without the three nights Jesus specified. Here's the events as they happened:

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. - Mark 16:1
Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. - Luke 23:56

Summary:

• Wednesday afternoon/evening - Jesus crucified, and buried by Joseph.
• Thursday - High Sabbath, 1st day of unleavened bread.
• Friday - Mary & company go out and procure embalming spices, and prepare them.
• Saturday - Sabbath according to the 7th day of the week.
• Sunday before dawn - Mary & company go to embalm Jesus, by which time He has risen!

That's three days as we account them: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.
It is also three nights as we account them: Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights, and Jesus didn't remain in the tomb Saturday night. Sometime during the night He resurrected from the dead. When Mary arrived on the scene, she initially mistook Jesus for a gardener (John 20:15) - He had been up for an undocumented amount of time before her arrival.

Genez started this with his observation, that we agree on:

Good point! One of the most commonly held misconceptions concerning what is referred to as Good Friday persists because many churches do not understand what a High Sabbath is. The High Sabbath falls according to the Passover timing and not determined by it being a Saturday, as the regular Sabbath day.

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday. Because, the High Sabbath that year fell on a Thursday. The "Preparation Day" was for the High Sabbath, not the regular Sabbath. That is why many today have a hard time reconciling three days and three nights in the belly of the earth. They keep assuming the Sabbath fell on a Saturday and that Jesus was crucified on Friday. It ends up getting messy as they scramble to explain it.

I don't see where this becomes a essential issue, and it doesn't follow the topic of the thread anyway. However, it became another avenue for Elder111 to commit theological suicide with the comments he makes in variance with the Biblical record - just as he has done with consistent contradictions with the Law.

 

[JohnRabbit]

You are not working with the Jewish days. Once sunset came that day of the week ended and the new day began. At sunset Wednesday the day Thursday would begin in the darkness.

Jesus was not speaking of twenty four hour days. He spoke of daylight and darkness. Three "days" and three "nights." You have been thinking in terms of 24 hour days as we do today.

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


​

Jesus was not speaking in terms of 24 hour days! But darkness and light. If it were 24 hour days he would have simply said three days. But he specifically mentioned the time of daylights and darkness. Days and nights.

He had already died on the Cross on Wednesday while it was yet daylight. At that point his soul entered the belly of the earth. One day.

Jesus did not say he would be dead three 24 hour days, as we think in terms of days. He specifically stated ...

Three days and three nights. Light and darkness. Not 24 hour days.

Wednesday when he died became Day One. At that sunset began the darkness (night One). And, that darkness was also the beginning of the next day Thursday for the Jews. ..and so forth.

At times we must to learn to think Jewish, or the Gospels will really mess with our thinking. The Gospels was set in a Jewish culture, not the Roman one. We use a Roman type calendar. The Jewish calendar works differently than ours.

that would be all well and good, except that Jesus defined the day:


John 11:9-10(NKJV)
9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”

so if there's 12 hours in the day (and notice He mentions the night), then isn't is logical to conclude that there are 12 hours in the night?

so when He said "three days and three nights", i believe Him!

i'll stick to what Messiah said!

remember, God set the day not the jews!


Genesis 1:13(NKJV)
13So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Jesus obviously understood this!

 

[from scratch]

Because no one could travel to the tomb until the Sabbath was over.

Not acceptable to me. One is because the law wasn't in affect at that point. None of the Jews realized it yet. Jesus did though.

 

[from scratch]

You are not working with the Jewish days. Once sunset came that day of the week ended and the new day began. At sunset Wednesday the day Thursday would begin in the darkness.

Jesus was not speaking of twenty four hour days. He spoke of daylight and darkness. Three "days" and three "nights." You have been thinking in terms of 24 hour days as we do today.

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so
the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


​

Jesus was not speaking in terms of 24 hour days.. But of darkness and light. If it were 24 hour days he would have simply said three days. But he specifically mentioned the time of daylight and darkness. Days and nights.

He had died on the Cross on Wednesday while it was yet daylight. At that point his soul left his body and entered the belly of the earth. One day in the belly of the earth.

Jesus did not say he would be dead three 24 hour days as we would think in terms of days. He specifically stated ... Three days and three nights. Light and darkness. Not 24 hour days.

Wednesday when he died became his Day One. At that sunset began darkness (night One). That darkness was also the beginning of the next day of the week Thursday for the Jews. ..and so forth.

At times we must to learn to think Jewish or the Gospels will really mess with our thinking. The Gospels was set in a Jewish culture, not the Roman one. We use a Roman type calendar. The Jewish calendar works differently than ours.

Please look at your detailed numbering of days and nights in the post you replied to me.

 

[from scratch]

Neither Luke nor Mark provide a complete chronology of the events. It is only when you look at all the witness accounts that the chronology can be pieced together. Luke makes it clear that Mary and her band of cohorts waited until the sabbath was over with before they could buy embalming spices.



Both the KJV and 1982 NKJV I quoted use the past tense, consistent with the author's perspective when he wrote the account. That the KJV isn't using contemporary language is the only reason it isn't as clear. But, they both say the same thing.

The only doctrinal import that can be gleaned from the account was as a sign to the Jewish nation that witnessed the account firsthand. This was according to what Jesus told them, recorded by Matthew 12:

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Those women were busy beavers on Friday.
Using the chronology tradition posits with a Friday crucifixion leaves you without the three nights Jesus specified. Here's the events as they happened:

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. - Mark 16:1
Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. - Luke 23:56

Summary:

• Wednesday afternoon/evening - Jesus crucified, and buried by Joseph.
• Thursday - High Sabbath, 1st day of unleavened bread.
• Friday - Mary & company go out and procure embalming spices, and prepare them.
• Saturday - Sabbath according to the 7th day of the week.
• Sunday before dawn - Mary & company go to embalm Jesus, by which time He has risen!

That's three days as we account them: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.
It is also three nights as we account them: Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights, and Jesus didn't remain in the tomb Saturday night. Sometime during the night He resurrected from the dead. When Mary arrived on the scene, she initially mistook Jesus for a gardener (John 20:15) - He had been up for an undocumented amount of time before her arrival.

Genez started this with his observation, that we agree on:

I don't see where this becomes a essential issue, and it doesn't follow the topic of the thread anyway. However, it became another avenue for Elder111 to commit theological suicide with the comments he makes in variance with the Biblical record - just as he has done with consistent contradictions with the Law.

I do see the discussion technically off topic.

Jesus was buried before the which ever Sabbath one choses to say it was. There is no indication the ladies actions to buy and prepare were on a different day. At least I don't see it. Details give us all fits and make a difference.

The 14th of Nissan is always the same day of the month in the New Moon calendar. The New Moon calendar always starts on the Sabbath the 7th day of the week.

 

[GenemZ]

that would be all well and good, except that Jesus defined the day:


John 11:9-10(NKJV)
9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
10But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”

so if there's 12 hours in the day (and notice He mentions the night), then isn't is logical to conclude that there are 12 hours in the night?

so when He said "three days and three nights", i believe Him!

i'll stick to what Messiah said!

remember, God set the day not the jews!


Genesis 1:13(NKJV)
13So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Jesus obviously understood this!

Yes sir! Those are days. 24 hours ending and starting as SUNSET.

But, Jesus did not say three days. Not stop and look at what he did say.

Three days and three nights. If he meant 24 hours he would have simply said three days.

Besides, your way of thinking totally screws up the death burial and resurrection account. Go for it if you want.

If that's what you want. Jesus warned not to change one dot or tittle. I have not. You have. Your choice. Face the atheist firing squad as a jerk who is confident as they shoot holes through your argument.

 

[GenemZ]

Not acceptable to me. One is because the law wasn't in affect at that point. None of the Jews realized it yet. Jesus did though.

WHAT? How was the law about the Sabbath not in effect yet for the Sabbath? Explain, please. They could not travel to the tomb until the Sabbath was over.

 

[from scratch]

Yes sir! Those are days. 24 hours ending and starting as SUNSET.

But, Jesus did not say three days. Not stop and look at what he did say.

Three days and three nights. If he meant 24 hours he would have simply said three days.

Besides, your way of thinking totally screws up the death burial and resurrection account. Go for it if you want.

If that's what you want. Jesus warned not to change one dot or tittle. I have not. You have. Your choice. Face the atheist firing squad as a jerk who is confident as they shoot holes through your argument.

The daylight time never varies in Israel?

 

[GenemZ]

that would be all well and good, except that Jesus defined the day:

Hey, Jack Rabbit... Do NOT alter what another posted when you quote him. Leave what he wrote, as he wrote it. If not, its against the forum rules. Learn that much, please. Thank you.

 

[GenemZ]

The daylight time never varies in Israel?

Of course! What difference would that make in this case?

I think you are just stalling for time. (pun intended)

 

[from scratch]

Yes sir! Those are days. 24 hours ending and starting as SUNSET.

But, Jesus did not say three days. Not stop and look at what he did say.

Three days and three nights. If he meant 24 hours he would have simply said three days.

Besides, your way of thinking totally screws up the death burial and resurrection account. Go for it if you want.

If that's what you want. Jesus warned not to change one dot or tittle. I have not. You have. Your choice. Face the atheist firing squad as a jerk who is confident as they shoot holes through your argument.

Only in the way we keep time these days.

 

[from scratch]

WHAT? How was the law about the Sabbath not in effect yet for the Sabbath? Explain, please. They could not travel to the tomb until the Sabbath was over.

At what point did the New Covenant begin and the Old Covenant cease? Redemption is complete upon victory over death.