What Would Falsify the Flood? (2)

[AV1611VET]

Where is the eyewitness account, AV? The author here is not the eyewitness. So that makes this a hearsay account.

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:

It appears from the Acts of the Apostles, and the Apostolic Epistles, that the earliest preaching of the Gospel consisted of a brief summary of the facts of our Lord's earthly history, with a few words of pointed application to the parties addressed. Of these astonishing facts, notes would naturally be taken and digests put into circulation. It is to such that Luke here refers; and in terms of studied respect, as narratives of what was "believed surely," or "on sure grounds" among Christians, and drawn up from the testimony of "eye-witnesses and ministering servants of the word."

But when he adds that "it seemed good to him also to write in order, having traced down all things with exactness from their first rise," it is a virtual claim for his own Gospel to supersede these "many" narratives. Accordingly, while not one of them has survived the wreck of time, this and the other canonical Gospels live, and shall live, the only fitting vehicles of those life-bringing facts which have made all things new.

Apocryphal or spurious gospels, upheld by parties unfriendly to the truths exhibited in the canonical Gospels, have not perished; but those well-meant and substantially correct narratives here referred to, used only while better were not to be had, were by tacit consent allowed to merge in the four peerless documents which from age to age, and with astonishing unanimity, have been accepted as the written charter of all Christianity.

 

[Subduction Zone]

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:

Typical creationist poor reading comprehension. The accounts are still second hand at best and therefore not eye-witness accounts.

 

[AV1611VET]

Typical creationist poor reading comprehension. The accounts are still second hand at best and therefore not eye-witness accounts.

The Bible says it ... that settles it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible says it ... that settles it.

And AV admits that he has nothing.

Thank you.

 

[46AND2]

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:

You do understand that this commentary agrees with me, that Luke is not an eyewitness, right?

He's saying that Luke traced back all the stories, and essentially took a composite.

 

[dad]

Is your version of Hell the same as ED's? Because it seems like you're describing a separation from God, something I already experience without feeling even slightly unhappy about it. I already live with death and sickness and tears and yet my life is still filled with joy. So what do I have to fear from Hell if it is staying here doing the same thing I'm doing and enjoying? There are already people who live at a level of opulence and comfort and freedom I will never experience and this doesn't bother me.

This is separate from the obvious fact that I am not worried about Hell because it doesn't exist.

His may be bad, and close, but I lean more to the one Jesus told about.

 

[EternalDragon]

Perhaps the problem is not with my comprehension but with your inconsistency. What you have described above is something quite different from what you first described:

Here you are saying that I will be separated from God and that I will be tormented by this fact. That it will be "like being in jail"and isn't nice. You can see why that description holds no terror for me. Your new version, in which I am actually physically in solitary confinement is more daunting. So which is it?

Recall that our discussion on this topic arose because you were claiming to give your children a balanced view of the evolution vs creation issue and allowing them to choose for themselves. Then it was pointed out to you that you are not really providing a level playing field because you tell them that they will go to Hell if they choose wrong. You countered by saying that Hell didn't involve actual physical punishment. But now you are saying just that, which means you really aren't giving your children the option of freely choosing for themselves because they have the threat of this eternal physical imprisonment if they choose wrong.

There is no choosing wrong. It's more like asking for a free gift. And again you keep telling me what I did, how I treat my kids and putting words in my mouth. Perhaps hearing directly from God would be a better way to communicate with you. (And I am not sure how jail and confinement seem different to you.)

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[46AND2]

...snip...Perhaps hearing directly from God would be a better way to communicate with you. ...snip...

Indeed it would.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Oh. That's what you meant. Pity.

This isn't hearing directly from God (it isn't hearing, even, at all).

If I actually heard God speak to me, then yes, that would be a better way to communicate with me.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The Bible says it ... that settles it.

The Bible says it's a second-hand account ... that settles it.

 

[dad]

The Bible says it's a second-hand account ... that settles it.

From the hand of God, to selected men. Guess that makes it second hand.

 

[Atheos canadensis]

There is no choosing wrong. It's more like asking for a free gift. And again you keep telling me what I did, how I treat my kids and putting words in my mouth. Perhaps hearing directly from God would be a better way to communicate with you. (And I am not sure how jail and confinement seem different to you.)

You are being inconsistent. First you said that there was no actual physical punishment and that all the distress came from being separated from God. Now you're saying there is actual physical punishment in the form of being confined. Which is it? If it is the former case then I have nothing to fear from Hell. If it is the latter case then you aren't really presenting a balanced look at the issue to your kids because not choosing to take the free gift results in punishment.

 

[EternalDragon]

You are being inconsistent. First you said that there was no actual physical punishment and that all the distress came from being separated from God. Now you're saying there is actual physical punishment in the form of being confined. Which is it? If it is the former case then I have nothing to fear from Hell. If it is the latter case then you aren't really presenting a balanced look at the issue to your kids because not choosing to take the free gift results in punishment.

You are stretching my words again. Did you think I meant that you would be floating around as a ghost in the afterlife if you weren't saved?

I don't think you realize that we are all guilty of sin already.

 

[46AND2]

You are stretching my words again. Did you think I meant that you would be floating around as a ghost in the afterlife if you weren't saved?

I don't think you realize that we are all guilty of sin already.

Oh yes, the whole idea that God created us inherently incapable of refraining sin, then goes ahead and punishes us for creating us that way.

 

[Atheos canadensis]

You are stretching my words again. Did you think I meant that you would be floating around as a ghost in the afterlife if you weren't saved?

I don't think you realize that we are all guilty of sin already.

Hey, this is your mythology. I'm just going off what you've told me of it. I didn't imagine I would be floating around in the ether, but your first description specifically said there was no physical torment. Now you say there is. So which is it?

 

[EternalDragon]

Oh yes, the whole idea that God created us inherently incapable of refraining sin, then goes ahead and punishes us for creating us that way.

Apparently you prefer to have a puppet existence with no free will.

We are capable of refraining from sinning. And if we do slip up, there's always the fact the GOD HIMSELF became one of us and died a horrible death so you could have all your sins removed forever.

What more do you want?

 

[EternalDragon]

Hey, this is your mythology. I'm just going off what you've told me of it. I didn't imagine I would be floating around in the ether, but your first description specifically said there was no physical torment. Now you say there is. So which is it?

Depends on what your definition of "torment" is. If you think God or some demon is going to constantly torment you in hell, that is not the case. Suffice it to say that I don't think anyone would choose to be there.

 

[Black Akuma]

Apparently you prefer to have a puppet existence with no free will.

?

Question - why, exactly, is having free will better than not?

 

[EternalDragon]

Question - why, exactly, is having free will better than not?

Why is freedom better than oppression?

 

[Black Akuma]

Why is freedom better than oppression?

Why would not having free will mean you're oppressed?

 

[EternalDragon]

Why would not having free will mean you're oppressed?

Seriously?

Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. Factors of historical concern have included metaphysical constraints (such as logical, nomological, or theological determinism), physical constraints (such as chains or imprisonment), social constraints (such as threat of punishment or censure), and mental constraints (such as compulsions or phobias, neurological disorders, or genetic predispositions). The principle of free will has religious, legal, ethical, and scientific implications.[1] For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individual will and choices can coexist with an omnipotent divinity. In the law, it affects considerations of punishment and rehabilitation.