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No new Mosques?

smaneck

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I do not think the website I linked is run by white supremacists.

They publish stuff by white supremacists. It got started because they felt William Buckley Jr. National Review was too liberal (!). On of their major contributors is John Derbyshire who thinks women shouldn't have the right to vote. He also writes:

"White supremacy, in the sense of a society in which key decisions are made by white Europeans, is one of the better arrangements History has come up with. There have of course been some blots on the record, but I don't see how it can be denied that net-net, white Europeans have made a better job of running fair and stable societies than has any other group."

The part in that article where uighurs are not native is in the argument against independence part.

I think you misunderstood it.

By reputable websites do you mean websites like the ihh website or electronicintifada that is linked by some muslims and/or islamists on this forum?

How about Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch? Those are the most reputable groups when it comes to reporting human rights violations.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Christendom did that for many, many centuries.

Did that......

The past, in the past.

What point are you making, that the past can be used to justify the present?

No wonder nothing gets done about Muslims oppressing others, whenever its addressed, it just leads onto a sideline about an event in history that someone makes an excuse for whats happening today.
 
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smaneck

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Did that......

The past, in the past.

What point are you making, that the past can be used to justify the present?

Not suggesting that it justifies the present.

What I *am* suggesting is that this cannot be used as evidence that Christianity is *innately* superior to Islam.

No wonder nothing gets done about Muslims oppressing others, whenever its addressed, it just leads onto a sideline about an event in history that someone makes an excuse for whats happening today.

Not so. What prevents oppression from being dealt with effectively is our attachment to national sovereignty.
 
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simplegifts

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Did that......

The past, in the past.

What point are you making, that the past can be used to justify the present?

No wonder nothing gets done about Muslims oppressing others, whenever its addressed, it just leads onto a sideline about an event in history that someone makes an excuse for whats happening today.

Because it is in their book:
005.032 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
005.033 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

and

009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

How do you tell a person their religion is evil when they cut off a person's head if there just a simple cartoon about Mohammad let alone serious critic!!
 
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smaneck

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You realize that Surah 5 is about those who commit treason and Surah 9 refers to those People of the Book who break their treaties with Muslims?

How do you tell a person their religion is evil when they cut off a person's head if there just a simple cartoon about Mohammad let alone serious critic!!

As far as I know no ones head has been cut off for that.
 
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ContraMundum

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I get this decision. I see nothing wrong with countries trying to preserve their culture (Muslim countries who refuse to allow new Churches to be built I understand as well.). In Russia, the Orthodox Church is part of the culture, not just an optional add-on in a country with many religions, but rather part of the core of Russian identity. With the subtle rise in Russian nationalism, I don't think anyone should be surprised.

Also, I don't think Russians will care if Westerners think their values are unfair or undemocratic. I think a lot of them look at the West and the Middle East and say "no thanks".
 
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simplegifts

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You realize that Surah 5 is about those who commit treason and Surah 9 refers to those People of the Book who break their treaties with Muslims?



As far as I know no ones head has been cut off for that.

Maybe in your and Bahai and peaceful Muslims' interpretation but not in those violent political Muslims.
005.032 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
005.033 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land
"Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil."

008.038 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them
008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

You are correct - Just murdered in the name of allah and Mohammad.
 
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simplegifts

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I get this decision. I see nothing wrong with countries trying to preserve their culture (Muslim countries who refuse to allow new Churches to be built I understand as well.). In Russia, the Orthodox Church is part of the culture, not just an optional add-on in a country with many religions, but rather part of the core of Russian identity. With the subtle rise in Russian nationalism, I don't think anyone should be surprised.

Also, I don't think Russians will care if Westerners think their values are unfair or undemocratic. I think a lot of them look at the West and the Middle East and say "no thanks".

There is this problem developing:
Rush-hour blast kills 14 on trolley bus in Volgograd, Russia; 3rd deadly attack in four days - World News

By Albina Kovalyova and Daniel Arkin, NBC News
MOSCOW -- At least 14 people were killed and 28 wounded when an explosion ripped through a trolley bus in the Russian city of Volgograd on Monday, the country's third deadly attack in four days.
The explosion, which authorities blamed on a suicide bomber, tore out much of the electric bus' exterior, left mangled bodies on the street and raised fears about more violence in the lead-up to the Sochi Winter Olympics that Russia will host in six weeks.

"For the second day, we are dying -- it's a nightmare," a woman near the scene told Reuters, her voice trembling. "What are we supposed to do, just walk now?"

Volgograd, a city of around one million about 400 miles northeast of Sochi, is a key transport hub for southern Russia, with many bus routes linking it to the volatile provinces in the North Caucasus.

On Sunday, 17 people were killed in a terror attack by a suspected female suicide bomber at a railway station in Volgograd. And on Friday, a car bomb killed three people in the southern Russian city of Pyatigorsk, 170 miles east of Sochi, where the Olympics will be held.

In October, another female suicide bomber was blamed for a bus explosion in Volgograd that killed five people.

The blasts on Sunday and Monday were probably connected because the TNT and shrapnel-packed bombs were "identical," said Vladimir Markin, spokesman for Russia's main investigative agency.

"That confirms the investigators' version that both terrorist attacks were linked," he told Russian television. "They could have been prepared in one place."

The remains of the presumed bomber had been collected and were being examined, Markin added.
Earlier, federal investigators had said that the bus blast came from a bomb that most likely had been planted in the vehicle's passenger area, according to The Associated Press.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but the leaders of an insurgency that aims to create an Islamic state out of Muslim provinces south of Volgograd have urged militants to use "maximum force" to stop the Olympics from being held.

President Vladimir Putin called a meeting of security and intelligence chiefs in the wake of Monday's attack, and the country's interior ministry ordered police to bolster patrols in railway stations and other transport hubs across the country.

Putin, who was elected after waging war against Chechen rebels in the mountains just south of Volgograd, has staked his reputation on organizing a safe Olympics. Security experts warn that his biggest security challenge is attacks by Islamist militants whose fight is rooted in this war.

“Since these games were first awarded to Russia several years back, people were worried because of the long-standing conflicts,” NBC News counter-terrorism analyst Michael Leiter said after Sunday’s attack. “And this type of mass transit is what officials are most concerned with.”

Russia on Monday compared the twin bombings to attacks by militants in the U.S., Syria and other countries around the world, and called for international solidarity in the fight against "terrorists."

"We will not retreat and will continue our consistent fight against an insidious enemy that can only be defeated together," the foreign ministry said in a statement. It added that the attacks came against the backdrop of threats from militants such as Doku Umarov, an Islamist leader who has called on fighters to sabotage the Olympics.

The White House issued a statement within hours of the latest blast, saying President Barack Obama has been briefed on the attacks and the United States and Russia were cooperating on anti-terrorism leading up to the Games.

Russian Olympic Committee President Alexander Zhukov said Monday that there was no need to take any extra steps to secure Sochi in the wake of the attacks because "everything necessary has been done."
 
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smaneck

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I get this decision. I see nothing wrong with countries trying to preserve their culture (Muslim countries who refuse to allow new Churches to be built I understand as well.). In Russia, the Orthodox Church is part of the culture, not just an optional add-on in a country with many religions, but rather part of the core of Russian identity. With the subtle rise in Russian nationalism, I don't think anyone should be surprised.

We are pretty far apart here. In the first place, I don't think the rise of this kind of rabid nationalism is a good thing. It is the disease of our age which more than anything has led to genocide. Russians lost their right to an exclusive Orthodox identity when they began to move eastward onto Muslim lands. It they want to be Orthodox and Orthodox only then they should freely give up all lands where mostly Muslims live, such as Chechnya. Third, freedom of religion is a part of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights which Russia is a signatory to and therefore has an obligation to uphold it.

Also, I don't think Russians will care if Westerners think their values are unfair or undemocratic. I think a lot of them look at the West and the Middle East and say "no thanks".

Then they should publicly disavow their signature on that document.
 
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smaneck

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Maybe in your and Bahai and peaceful Muslims' interpretation but not in those violent political Muslims.

Violent Islamists are in the minority.

008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression,

And you don't believe in fighting against oppression?
 
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smaneck

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There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but the leaders of an insurgency that aims to create an Islamic state out of Muslim provinces south of Volgograd have urged militants to use "maximum force" to stop the Olympics from being held.

Well, if you will not allow people to practice their religion within the country (by allowing mosques to be built) nor will you allow them to be independent where they are in the majority, what do you expect?
 
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ContraMundum

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We are pretty far apart here. In the first place, I don't think the rise of this kind of rabid nationalism is a good thing. It is the disease of our age which more than anything has led to genocide. Russians lost their right to an exclusive Orthodox identity when they began to move eastward onto Muslim lands. It they want to be Orthodox and Orthodox only then they should freely give up all lands where mostly Muslims live, such as Chechnya. Third, freedom of religion is a part of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights which Russia is a signatory to and therefore has an obligation to uphold it.

I don't think nationalism is a good thing- but I understand it. I get what they are saying. I'm against nationalism, but I do comprehend its nucleus and I think everyone has a bit of cultural and national pride in them.

I don't think anyone ever loses the right to be anything they wish to be. But the problem is that people's rights clash with other people's rights. Oddly, I don't think Russians have moved into Muslim lands, I think Islam has moved into Orthodox lands. It didn't seem a problem for quite some time.

I also don't think Russia is against freedom of religion. I do think they feel their religion and culture is under threat- whether that's real or perceived, it is the basis of this ideology. Fear is always behind nationalism.

Let's not forget that the Swiss also made a similar law against minarets. National identity was behind that too.

When do the Baha'i get to build a big building in Saudi?

Then they should publicly disavow their signature on that document.

That may one day happen. I honestly don't think they care about our values as much as they once did. They tend to stand alone. I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled the plug on it.
 
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ContraMundum

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Well, if you will not allow people to practice their religion within the country (by allowing mosques to be built) nor will you allow them to be independent where they are in the majority, what do you expect?

I don't think that's actually what is happening. I think the radical Muslims are trying to make it a religious thing (to gain support from jihadists), when in fact it's not. It's mainly about sovereignty, payback and politics- from both sides.
 
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smaneck

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Oddly, I don't think Russians have moved into Muslim lands, I think Islam has moved into Orthodox lands.

You may want to read the history of Russian expansion. How do you think the Soviet Union got so big in the first place?

Let's not forget that the Swiss also made a similar law against minarets.

And it was equally wrong.

]When do the Baha'i get to build a big building in Saudi?

As you surely know, Baha'is have no rights in virtually any Muslim country in the Middle East. That too, is wrong.

Our first temple was ironically built in Russia. It was built in Ashkhabad which was on the border of Iran. Stalin destroyed that community.

That may one day happen. I honestly don't think they care about our values as much as they once did. They tend to stand alone. I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled the plug on it.

I doubt if they will do it overtly.
 
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ContraMundum

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You may want to read the history of Russian expansion. How do you think the Soviet Union got so big in the first place?

If we are thinking of the same region...

Understood- provided you start late enough in history that apology works. But before those lands were Muslim....they were Orthodox.

As you surely know, Baha'is have no rights in virtually any Muslim country in the Middle East. That too, is wrong.

Our first temple was ironically built in Russia. It was built in Ashkhabad which was on the border of Iran. Stalin destroyed that community.

..the HQ is in Israel now, right?
 
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smaneck

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If we are thinking of the same region...

Understood- provided you start late enough in history that apology works. But before those lands were Muslim....they were Orthodox.

To my knowledge the Orthodox Church never went east of the Urals before the Turks and Mongols were Islamicized. Russia reached all the way to China (actually to Alaska.)
 
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ContraMundum

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To my knowledge the Orthodox Church never went east of the Urals before the Turks and Mongols were Islamicized. Russia reached all the way to China (actually to Alaska.)

Ah...I see. We are thinking opposite ends of the empire here.
 
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smaneck

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I don't think that's actually what is happening. I think the radical Muslims are trying to make it a religious thing (to gain support from jihadists), when in fact it's not. It's mainly about sovereignty, payback and politics- from both sides.

Of course it is, but this is sort of thing is what fuels the jihadists. They are all about politics too.
 
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smaneck

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Ah...I see. We are thinking opposite ends of the empire here.

Even Chechnya was never predominantly Christian. They were still largely pagan when the Russians took over. The Chechens adopted Islam as a religion of resistance.
 
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smaneck

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..the HQ is in Israel now, right?

The Baha'i Faith was never headquartered in Ishqabad, they just had a large community there numbering some 4000 people. Our World Center is located in Israel but that is largely an accident of history. (Okay, maybe it was providential.) What happened is that Baha'u'llah was sent to what was then a prison city of the Ottoman Empire, Akka which lies across the bay from Haifa. Baha'u'llah then ordered that the Bab's remains which had been secreted for the last forty years would be interred on Mount Carmel. And of course Baha'u'llah Himself was eventually buried outside of Akka.
 
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