[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot are sad and bad!

[mindlight]

If you truly believe that people should be locked up for blasphemy, then I hold you in even greater contempt than I thought I did.

Your contempt comes from the fact you have no comprehension or concern of how serious blasphemy is to God.

Leviticus 24:10-23

However if people were locked up for blasphemy the prisons would all be full. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot were locked up for an act of hooliganism in a church which included blasphemy and also a direct attack on the governing authorities. The blasphemy element is something that they themselves have since expressed some regret over and for which the church has shown clemency.

 

[mindlight]

What truths does Vladimir Putin stand for? Frankly, there's some dishonesty involved in their sentence. It's not illegal to criticize Putin, so they're being punished with a severe prison sentence for doing something that was kind of annoying. Obviously their real "crime" is insulting Putin.

This is pretty much equivalent to running into a mall and shouting angry things about the president. You should get a slap on the wrist and be told not to do it again, and if you've done it before and been told not to repeat your past actions, you should pay a small fine for not respecting the right of someone else to decide how their property is used and for being disruptive (that's the crime they actually committed, after all). I think that most people would be up in arms if someone received a two year prison sentence for that in America, though. Just because someone is a psychotic strongman who stifles all criticism doesn't make it right to be a psychotic strongman who stifles all criticism.

Actually this sentence was relatively mild by Russian standards. Had it been Stalin and the Communist party rather than Putin and the Orthodox church they had insulted they would be dead. In a way this whole discussion is evidence of just how far Russia has come. At the end of the day they broke the law here.

Of course the Russian leader is not above criticism but as the elected ruler of Russia he is owed some respect for the position he holds and it is not as though these ladies stand for any credible alternative.

 

[mindlight]

You simultaneously proclaim you are for free speech and then condone a decision made by someone like Putin to squelch people who were criticising him.

Can't have it both ways, champ.

Free speech does not have to be lewd, immoral, blasphemous and lacking in the proper respect. An idea of freedom that has no boundaries is actually something that erodes true freedom and diminishes society as a whole rather than enhances it. Putin actually had more to do with the release of these ladies than their initial convictions by the Russian courts. They committed a crime is why they were there.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Actually this sentence was relatively mild by Russian standards. Had it been Stalin and the Communist party rather than Putin and the Orthodox church they had insulted they would be dead. In a way this whole discussion is evidence of just how far Russia has come. At the end of the day they broke the law here.

"Mild by Russian standards" doesn't mean right. Let's say that they had been a Christian group who were arrested for publicly protesting in a shopping mall in a Middle Eastern country, in a way that was genuinely disruptive and not something that American Christians would support (maybe destroying a Quran and loudly yelling in a bullhorn). Rather than being executed, they were shown "clemency" and only imprisoned for two years for hooliganism. You would be (rightly) upset by that ruling.

Of course the Russian leader is not above criticism but as the elected ruler of Russia he is owed some respect for the position he holds and it is not as though these ladies stand for any credible alternative.

The position that he holds might be owed some respect. He, as a person, though, is just abusing that position.

 

[mindlight]

All too often professing Christians fail to realize that forgiveness is the true hallmark of Christianity.

On a personal level yes but will Jesus, as King of Kings, forgive everybody on his return? The cross is a preamble to the Day of Judgment. Christians need not fear it but everybody else should. You distort the gospel if you offer cheap grace and an anything goes moral code as the Christian example. It is only those who have repented who shall be saved. Also the Christian aspiration is that the civil law should reflect Christian standards. It should therefore be a signpost to right and wrong and a restraint on acts of evil. Instead in recent years with abortion, divorce, the legalisation of witchcraft and same sex marriage those restraints have been removed in recent years in the UK. 180000 dead children every year, 50% of marriages ending in divorce, a high illegitimacy rate and now the affirmation of a homosexual lifestyle by the law itself is a spiritual disaster that cannot simply be ignored.

We are the stench of death to those who will die and the smell of life to those who will enjoy eternal life.

 

[mindlight]

"Mild by Russian standards" doesn't mean right. Let's say that they had been a Christian group who were arrested for publicly protesting in a shopping mall in a Middle Eastern country, in a way that was genuinely disruptive and not something that American Christians would support (maybe destroying a Quran and loudly yelling in a bullhorn). Rather than being executed, they were shown "clemency" and only imprisoned for two years for hooliganism. You would be (rightly) upset by that ruling.

The position that he holds might be owed some respect. He, as a person, though, is just abusing that position.

I think one has to ask what is going to work in one culture as opposed to another. Yeltsin was more open on "free speech" and frankly he was a disaster for most Russians and the economy and peoples living standards collapsed and the crime rate blossomed. Putin has reversed some of the worst trends but yes the country is far from perfect and he still has much to do. But there is no real alternative to him at present that will actually move Russia in a positive direction. Also many of these socalled human rights activists are actually deeply antiChristian in their outlook and are actually supportive of different kinds of corruption of the Russian state. At the moment the levels of bribery and corruption in the Russian economy are astronomical and probably the countries main problem and I would criticise Putin for not doing more to establish the rule of law in this respect and to establish an honest trading culture rather than for being too authoritarian.

By the way I would be genuinely surprised if an Evangelical group doing street evangelism in a Middle eastern mall would survive more than a couple of minutes before being lynched by the crowd let alone by the authorities. The contrast with Russia or Israel could not be more marked on that example.

 

[Gadarene]

Free speech does not have to be lewd, immoral, blasphemous and lacking in the proper respect.

Actually, it does have to legally contain some of those things, otherwise you don't have freedom of speech. What you have is speech that can be restricted for the sake of supposed niceties. Anyone can shut down such a system of speech simply by claiming "offence".

 

[mpok1519]

You think two years in prison is not a cruel and unusual punishment for a public disturbance?

Their punishment should fit the crime don't you agree?

Everybody paints them as the voice of freedom when actually they were convicted for blasphemous singing in a church. They moan at how grey their prison experience was but what do these ladies actually stand for.

Loose women for gay rights and the right to kill your baby and blaspheme in church seems to be the sum of it really.

I actually respect Putin for taking a stand against them. releasing them seems politically clever and defuses one potential source of criticism before the Russian Olympics but really he did not have to do this.

Jailed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot member describes Russian prison camp 'anti-life' - Telegraph

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I think one has to ask what is going to work in one culture as opposed to another. Yeltsin was more open on "free speech" and frankly he was a disaster for most Russians and the economy and peoples living standards collapsed and the crime rate blossomed. Putin has reversed some of the worst trends but yes the country is far from perfect and he still has much to do. But there is no real alternative to him at present that will actually move Russia in a positive direction. Also many of these socalled human rights activists are actually deeply antiChristian in their outlook and are actually supportive of different kinds of corruption of the Russian state. At the moment the levels of bribery and corruption in the Russian economy are astronomical and probably the countries main problem and I would criticise Putin for not doing more to establish the rule of law in this respect and to establish an honest trading culture rather than for being too authoritarian.

The problem with looking at a leader like Putin as being a good leader in a particular situation is that, when the situation is over, leaders like him don't just go away. If a country goes in the direction of tyranny, it will continue going in the direction of tyranny until that system collapses, which usually ends up with a situation worse than the one that the country started with. Look at Iran, for example. They had an elected leader, who was deposed by an authoritarian Shah. The end result was that Iran's Shah was replaced by the Ayatollah, and the country ended up as a theocracy that we're now concerned might pursue nuclear weapons. Cases where a dictator is deposed and the country moves peacefully to the rule of law aren't very common. Usually, they get either economic collapse, or another dictator.

The rule of law and democracy develops slowly out of a crisis, and sometimes uncomfortably. It isn't always pretty. A strongman is very rarely the best solution, though, because most of them don't want to give up power at the end of the crisis.

By the way I would be genuinely surprised if an Evangelical group doing street evangelism in a Middle eastern mall would survive more than a couple of minutes before being lynched by the crowd let alone by the authorities. The contrast with Russia or Israel could not be more marked on that example.

The point is less that it would really happen, and more that, if it did, it would be comparable. They actually are doing something wrong, but it's just being a disturbance. Putting them in prison for two years is not the proper response, even if it is better than what would probably happen to them.

 

[Billnew]

never mind

 

[Glass*Soul]

Everybody paints them as the voice of freedom when actually they were convicted for blasphemous singing in a church. They moan at how grey their prison experience was but what do these ladies actually stand for.

Loose women for gay rights and the right to kill your baby and blaspheme in church seems to be the sum of it really.

I actually respect Putin for taking a stand against them. releasing them seems politically clever and defuses one potential source of criticism before the Russian Olympics but really he did not have to do this.

Jailed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot member describes Russian prison camp 'anti-life' - Telegraph

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you have any idea how finely anti-blasphemy laws can be tuned to arrest and jail almost anyone and everyone? You can be their champion one day, and wake up the next day to find that some tiny nuance of your stated beliefs has been deemed offensive by someone who has gained a mean little bit of power.

I remember the bad old days on this website, when members' adherence to the Nicean creed was being sifted. One could log off feeling themselves quite rosily in with the in group and log on the next morning to find that, in the night, their cross icon had been taken away, and their freedom to roam the site narrowed, over some point they had made regarding their beliefs. What an illuminating social experiment. It is good this is no longer done here. Small potatoes as that was, imagine that on a nationwide scale with the stakes one's freedom as a citizen.

Or do you imagine yourself at the highest echelons, making the decisions as to who blasphemes and who passes?

 

[HonestTruth]

On a personal level yes but will Jesus, as King of Kings, forgive everybody on his return? The cross is a preamble to the Day of Judgment. Christians need not fear it but everybody else should. You distort the gospel if you offer cheap grace and an anything goes moral code as the Christian example. It is only those who have repented who shall be saved. Also the Christian aspiration is that the civil law should reflect Christian standards. It should therefore be a signpost to right and wrong and a restraint on acts of evil. Instead in recent years with abortion, divorce, the legalisation of witchcraft and same sex marriage those restraints have been removed in recent years in the UK. 180000 dead children every year, 50% of marriages ending in divorce, a high illegitimacy rate and now the affirmation of a homosexual lifestyle by the law itself is a spiritual disaster that cannot simply be ignored.

We are the stench of death to those who will die and the smell of life to those who will enjoy eternal life.

In an ideal world it should reflect those standards. But when has that ever happened? Did it happen in the UK when it invaded the Indian subcontinent and spread drug wars which killed millions? Or in the USA when its "Manifest Destiny" exterminate millions of Native Americans? Or in the modern era when both countries invaded Asian countries, killed thousands and stole their wealth?

 

[Gadarene]

In an ideal world it should reflect those standards. But when has that ever happened? Did it happen in the UK when it invaded the Indian subcontinent and spread drug wars which killed millions? Or in the USA when its "Manifest Destiny" exterminate millions of Native Americans? Or in the modern era when both countries invaded Asian countries, killed thousands and stole their wealth?

inb4 not "true" Christians

 

[Sarah Sarah]

There are two types of hooliganism as defined by Russian law. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot was convicted of the second type, which is criminal hooliganism. And rightly so.

Criminal hooliganism is more serious. It has to be “a gross violation of public order, showing a disrespect for society.” It must involve weapons or objects used as weapons, or be done for motives of political, ideological, racial, national, or religious hatred, or hatred toward a social group. It can carry a sentence of up to 5 years if committed by an individual, or 7 years if committed by an organized group. {Source:What Does It Mean To Be Charged With “Hooliganism” In Russia?}

The original video of performance punk band Free [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot in Cathedral of Christ th Saviour Moscow - YouTube


These women knew what they were doing. They knew what they were putting at risk as far as their liberty is concerned. They made a choice and the court said they had to pay for it.

No doubt they'll be in prison again soon. Committing an even worse offense than this what was committed in an orthodox church. And that was filmed by them so as to go on the net and bring public attention to a message that really didn't get out the way they planned.

 

[Gadarene]

I do love this "but it's the laaaaaaw" excuse-making.

I'm sure if the law in Russia (or any other country) prohibited or put restrictions upon Christianity we'd not be hearing the end of it right now from the same people making excuses in this thread.

 

[Sarah Sarah]

The reality is Russia made the law. And all we are able to do is comment on it. It would be the Russian government that would be the only one's actually capable of making excuses for their lawful definition and prosecution of hooliganism.

 

[Gadarene]

And the reality is plenty of shills here are condoning it.

 

[seashale76]

These women knew what they were doing. They knew what they were putting at risk as far as their liberty is concerned. They made a choice and the court said they had to pay for it.

No doubt they'll be in prison again soon. Committing an even worse offense than this what was committed in an orthodox church. And that was filmed by them so as to go on the net and bring public attention to a message that really didn't get out the way they planned.

Of course these women knew what they were doing- and they designed it to be offensive and blasphemous. They intentionally walked right up to the Royal Doors/Beautiful Gate where laity isn't allowed and proceeded to dance around with whatever lyrics would generate the most outrage- interrupting the prayers of those who were in the church. The one girl at the end even mocked how we pray- as we make the sign of the cross and prostrations during prayer. While there was no service going on, churches like this are generally open to the faithful for prayers, and this particular church is huge.

I've been avoiding watching the video because I knew I'd find it disturbing. However- I gave in and watched it since you posted it. I was right. I do find what they did disturbing. I'm probably more disturbed than anyone who has posted on this thread as it is my faith that was targeted. Yet- I agree with the Russian Orthodox Church that these women should be forgiven and should not have been imprisoned. Imprisonment for this stunt was not what was in their best interests. Instead of continuing to condemn them and think they were rightly imprisoned- pray for them.


What the church looks like when a service is going on (this is a pre sanctified liturgy during lent):
Патриарх совершил литургию в день годовщины хиротонии - YouTube

 

[Sarah Sarah]

I would hope all Christians responding in this thread pray for these women.

When the patriarchs of the Russian orthodox church are not heeded by the courts when asking for mercy and that these women not be imprisoned, clearly the court saw a reason they deserved to be punished for this blasphemy and hooliganism.

Prayer means nothing to these women at the point they were behaving this way. That's why they targeted a church for this public display of disrespect.
Had the court let them go after being found guilty of hooliganism what would the girls have done next?

They lived a life far better than what would be afforded them in prison before they decided to risk that sentence and freely chose to commit this assault on the church and all who were in attendance.

Had they been let go they would have thought they won with their display. And they would have gone on to further displays of this nature.

Look at what they're saying now and what will they do when they are now free again?

They certainly have the right to speak freely, though it is Russia. However, they don't have the right to disrespect this sacred place. And that I think is what the court told them in no uncertain terms.

Maybe thinking to teach them respect early on so they don't take other risks with more dangerous consequences later.

We'll see.
But certainly they are in my prayers. And have been since this thread came to my attention.

Of course these women knew what they were doing- and they designed it to be offensive and blasphemous. They intentionally walked right up to the Royal Doors/Beautiful Gate where laity isn't allowed and proceeded to dance around with whatever lyrics would generate the most outrage- interrupting the prayers of those who were in the church. The one girl at the end even mocked how we pray- as we make the sign of the cross and prostrations during prayer. While there was no service going on, churches like this are generally open to the faithful for prayers, and this particular church is huge.

I've been avoiding watching the video because I knew I'd find it disturbing. However- I gave in and watched it since you posted it. I was right. I do find what they did disturbing. I'm probably more disturbed than anyone who has posted on this thread as it is my faith that was targeted. Yet- I agree with the Russian Orthodox Church that these women should be forgiven and should not have been imprisoned. Imprisonment for this stunt was not what was in their best interests. Instead of continuing to condemn them and think they were rightly imprisoned- pray for them.


What the church looks like when a service is going on (this is a pre sanctified liturgy during lent):
Патриарх совершил литургию в день годовщины хиротонии - YouTube

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The point is less that it would really happen, and more that, if it did, it would be comparable. They actually are doing something wrong, but it's just being a disturbance. Putting them in prison for two years is not the proper response, even if it is better than what would probably happen to them.

Even if we accept that two years was a bit excessive, what is really the point that it raises. I could agree that one year, or even six months, would have been sufficient. How much difference does that make in the greater scheme of things? It's only a question that goes how the court chose to implement the law in this particular case, not the law itself. How many of us can honestly say that of all the people in prison in their countries, there aren't some that got longer sentences than they deserved? Why hold Russia to a higher standard?