[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot are sad and bad!

[Sarah Sarah]

Even if we accept that two years was a bit excessive, what is really the point that it raises. I could agree that one year, or even six months, would have been sufficient. How much difference does that make in the greater scheme of things? It's only a question that goes how the court chose to implement the law in this particular case, not the law itself. How many of us can honestly say that of all the people in prison in their countries, there aren't some that got longer sentences than they deserved? Why hold Russia to a higher standard?

This was a sentence for hooliganism and inciting religious hatred. The Russian Prime Minister said the five months these women served pre-trial should have been enough. And that a sentence of one year or more would be unproductive.

I think the sentence was made harsh due to the attacks PR made on Putin as well. Political retaliation being key perhaps. Also, there were other women with the group that escaped arrest. The sentence may have been stiff due to the women refusing to name their accomplices in this act also.

 

[Maren]

Even if we accept that two years was a bit excessive, what is really the point that it raises. I could agree that one year, or even six months, would have been sufficient. How much difference does that make in the greater scheme of things? It's only a question that goes how the court chose to implement the law in this particular case, not the law itself. How many of us can honestly say that of all the people in prison in their countries, there aren't some that got longer sentences than they deserved? Why hold Russia to a higher standard?

Because they were essentially convicted of "hate speech" laws. Unless you are saying you favor outlawing what the government determines to be "hate speech"?

I would think there could be several people (both on the right and left) on CF that might be convicted if the US had hate speech laws.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Because they were essentially convicted of "hate speech" laws. Unless you are saying you favor outlawing what the government determines to be "hate speech"?

I would think there could be several people (both on the right and left) on CF that might be convicted if the US had hate speech laws.

They were convicted of hooliganism, roughly equivalent to disorderly conduct in this country. Anyway, forcibly entering and church and disrupting worship, is not something a government can tolerate if it claims to protect freedom of religion.

 

[Maren]

They were convicted of hooliganism, roughly equivalent to disorderly conduct in this country. Anyway, forcibly entering and church and disrupting worship, is not something a government can tolerate if it claims to protect freedom of religion.

But if you look at the definition of "hooliganism" above, a major part of the crime is "hate speech" -- "motives of political, ideological, racial, national, or religious hatred, or hatred toward a social group". Your use of "forcibly" entering a church seems overstated, they walked into an open church and were escorted out after only about a minute; not much force was involved in the crime. While what they did was offensive, being offensive should not be criminal -- yet the prison time was because they offended people (again, hate speech).

And the government did not tolerate entering the church, and would not have even if they had only been charged with trespassing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you bet the house why would you be surprised when you lose it. They were directly challenging the right of the ruler to govern. That's not just hooliganism its a kind of revolution and treason. Such actions might be justifiable with truth on ones side but what truthes do these ladies stand for?

"The right of the ruler to govern."

Is this a joke? You do realize that Putin is basically a dictator who has rigged his elections and all but eliminated the democratic system in Russia....right?

He has about as much right to govern as I do lol.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has rigged the country’s elections to guarantee he will win

Personally, I think those girls are brave to stand up to him...in any manner.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually this sentence was relatively mild by Russian standards. Had it been Stalin and the Communist party rather than Putin and the Orthodox church they had insulted they would be dead. In a way this whole discussion is evidence of just how far Russia has come. At the end of the day they broke the law here.

Of course the Russian leader is not above criticism but as the elected ruler of Russia he is owed some respect for the position he holds and it is not as though these ladies stand for any credible alternative.

"Of course the Russian leader is not above criticism but as the elected ruler of Russia he is owed some respect for the position he holds and it is not as though these ladies stand for any credible alternative."

Lol...as elected leader....hilarious.

If our "elected leaders" were elected in the same manner as Putin, I imagine half this nation would be involved in demonstrations and protests that would make [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot look tame.

Just out of curiosity, since none of the Christian posters here seem to have a clue about the massive political corruption that Putin is the head of....I suppose it would be expecting too much for any of you to understand the role the Russian orthodox church has played in that corruption and their own illegal grab for power in Russia?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Just out of curiosity, since none of the Christian posters here seem to have a clue about the massive political corruption that Putin is the head of....I suppose it would be expecting too much for any of you to understand the role the Russian orthodox church has played in that corruption and their own illegal grab for power in Russia?

Outsiders who go on about the level of political corruption under Putin, were generally silent about it under Yeltsin, when it was much worse. Worse still, when Putin does something about it, like prosecuting Khodorkovsky and Lebedev, he gets condemned for that.

If the Russian Orthodox Church had anything to do with putting Putin in power... good for them!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Outsiders who go on about the level of political corruption under Putin, were generally silent about it under Yeltsin, when it was much worse. Worse still, when Putin does something about it, like prosecuting Khodorkovsky and Lebed, he gets condemned for that.

If the Russian Orthodox Church had anything to do with putting Putin in power... good for them!

"When Putin does something about it...."

Did you even read the article I linked??? Putin is the source of political corruption in Russia.

The Russian Orthodox Church is now just as corrupt as the Russian government. They're practically in charge of a slow slide towards theocracy in that nation. You did answer my question though....just not as you intended. Good job.

 

[seashale76]

Some just hate on the Church because they find it galling that many people converted and returned to the faith after the fall of communism. The Church only has power because people take it seriously. In fact, the Church has been critical of Putin. The fact that the Church is given more of a voice in Russia than it is in governments like the US is actually NOT indicative of corruption within said religion and it has attempted to distance itself from being too closely tied to the government- with the Patriarch and individual priests speaking out. For the first time, in a long time, the Church is allowed to and CAN speak out against the government instead of having a puppet Patriarch put in power by the communists who has to rubber stamp everything the government says.

There are still plenty of people alive today who remember how the communists killed and imprisoned millions of clergy and believers and destroyed churches. Plenty still remember how the communists infiltrated the Church and really did corrupt it to the point that the diaspora and the rest of the Orthodox Church considered the Russian Orthodox Church compromised. We would not be united with them today if we still thought this was the case.

I get the impression that some won't be happy unless the anti-religious part of communism is imposed on everyone again. Don't worry- there are still plenty of atheists in Russia- just not nearly as many as you'd like anymore.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Even if we accept that two years was a bit excessive, what is really the point that it raises. I could agree that one year, or even six months, would have been sufficient. How much difference does that make in the greater scheme of things? It's only a question that goes how the court chose to implement the law in this particular case, not the law itself. How many of us can honestly say that of all the people in prison in their countries, there aren't some that got longer sentences than they deserved? Why hold Russia to a higher standard?

I don't hold Russia to a higher standard. This thread is about Russia, but I would say the same sort of thing regardless of where this happened. This is something that I care about pretty deeply, and if it were possible, I would be a member of my campus' Amnesty International chapter (it's impossible because I have so much work that pretty much anything I don't strictly have to do is a luxury).

 

[wing2000]

Some just hate on the Church because they find it galling that many people converted and returned to the faith after the fall of communism.

No, some of us see quite clearly that Putin, the former Communist and head of the KGB, is nothing more than a political thug who is using the Russian Church to achieve his political objectives. These women were given an increased sentence because they indirectly challenged Putin's authority.

 

[ewells36]

They are no longer sad and or bad, well, they are still bad, but they are freed and bad But, it sounds like they will still be doing protesting, so I wonder how long they will be out before they are thrown back in. Heck, one of them stated that all of this, the amnesty they got, was a PR stunt and that she would rather be thrown back in. I say - throw her back in then but this time for making horrible music

 

[Ana the Ist]

Some just hate on the Church because they find it galling that many people converted and returned to the faith after the fall of communism. The Church only has power because people take it seriously. In fact, the Church has been critical of Putin. The fact that the Church is given more of a voice in Russia than it is in governments like the US is actually NOT indicative of corruption within said religion and it has attempted to distance itself from being too closely tied to the government- with the Patriarch and individual priests speaking out. For the first time, in a long time, the Church is allowed to and CAN speak out against the government instead of having a puppet Patriarch put in power by the communists who has to rubber stamp everything the government says.

There are still plenty of people alive today who remember how the communists killed and imprisoned millions of clergy and believers and destroyed churches. Plenty still remember how the communists infiltrated the Church and really did corrupt it to the point that the diaspora and the rest of the Orthodox Church considered the Russian Orthodox Church compromised. We would not be united with them today if we still thought this was the case.

I get the impression that some won't be happy unless the anti-religious part of communism is imposed on everyone again. Don't worry- there are still plenty of atheists in Russia- just not nearly as many as you'd like anymore.

It's like this thread has become a haven of people who have no idea what they're talking about. I'm sure you don't know that most of the church's current leadership is ex-KGB. That's right...the same KGB that used murder, violence, and intimidation to achieve the USSR's political goals. Maybe you didn't know that they still use violence and intimidation against Putin's enemies (like the church leader who punched the girl from [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot in the face). Maybe you didn't know that for supporting Putin these ex-KGB thugs all got extremely wealthy (Kiril, the current head of the ROC is worth an estimated 4 billion!).

Of course, I'm probably just "hating" lol....after all, these are your brothers in Christ, right? (Newsflash-they hate all western forms of Christianity and view themselves as the one true church).

As for a history lesson, do you know who reinstated this church after the communist purges? Stalin.

 

[florida2]

They are no longer sad and or bad, well, they are still bad, but they are freed and bad But, it sounds like they will still be doing protesting, so I wonder how long they will be out before they are thrown back in. Heck, one of them stated that all of this, the amnesty they got, was a PR stunt and that she would rather be thrown back in. I say - throw her back in then but this time for making horrible music

Of course it's a PR stunt - nothing more. With the Winter Olympics in a couple months Putin is eager to improve relations and prevent any boycotts. Not hard to see.

 

[seashale76]

It's like this thread has become a haven of people who have no idea what they're talking about. I'm sure you don't know that most of the church's current leadership is ex-KGB. That's right...the same KGB that used murder, violence, and intimidation to achieve the USSR's political goals. Maybe you didn't know that they still use violence and intimidation against Putin's enemies (like the church leader who punched the girl from [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot in the face). Maybe you didn't know that for supporting Putin these ex-KGB thugs all got extremely wealthy (Kiril, the current head of the ROC is worth an estimated 4 billion!).

Of course, I'm probably just "hating" lol....after all, these are your brothers in Christ, right? (Newsflash-they hate all western forms of Christianity and view themselves as the one true church).

As for a history lesson, do you know who reinstated this church after the communist purges? Stalin.

It sounds to me like you're simply repeating unsubstantiated things that haven't been proven. Doing so doesn't make you the one person who knows what they're talking about (except in your own mind- apparently). When my faith is attacked- I will defend it- and attacking an entire branch of my Church is attacking my faith.

Being accused of being ex-KGB and actually being ex-KGB are two different things. Nothing was substantiated. Also- they ARE my brothers in Christ as I'm also Orthodox. We don't hate Western Christians- but yes- we do believe our Church has the fullness of the faith.

Stalin set up a puppet Patriarch (which I alluded to) and this is the reason the Russian Church was considered compromised by the rest of the Orthodox world for many years. Yet- the same man also was responsible for killing loads of believers as well.

When it comes to these topics I have an interest in it because I share their faith- so I keep up with current events and with the history as well. In fact, here is a website that you should take a look at that has primary sources. It's pretty good and rather detailed, breaking events up by year in a time-line fashion. Much more thorough than the usual wikipedia search done on the fly by some.

http://soviethistory.org

 

[Sarah Sarah]

They were convicted of hooliganism, roughly equivalent to disorderly conduct in this country. Anyway, forcibly entering and church and disrupting worship, is not something a government can tolerate if it claims to protect freedom of religion.

There's a point.
When Russia outlawed promotion of homosexuality to minors, Putin said it was the governments duty to protect people's feelings.
I'd say that was taken into account when this PR case was prosecuted. And since PR is very anti-Putin his input probably affected the sentence as well given the Russia it appears he's trying to craft.

 

[mindlight]

Do you have any idea how finely anti-blasphemy laws can be tuned to arrest and jail almost anyone and everyone? You can be their champion one day, and wake up the next day to find that some tiny nuance of your stated beliefs has been deemed offensive by someone who has gained a mean little bit of power.

I remember the bad old days on this website, when members' adherence to the Nicean creed was being sifted. One could log off feeling themselves quite rosily in with the in group and log on the next morning to find that, in the night, their cross icon had been taken away, and their freedom to roam the site narrowed, over some point they had made regarding their beliefs. What an illuminating social experiment. It is good this is no longer done here. Small potatoes as that was, imagine that on a nationwide scale with the stakes one's freedom as a citizen.

Or do you imagine yourself at the highest echelons, making the decisions as to who blasphemes and who passes?

Christians should only be honest to what they believe in season and out of it. Blasphemy is an offence that was punishable by death in the israelite culture and in some medieval theocracies. I would prefer to live in a culture with more freedom of speech. But there are limits and what they did in the church was an act of public hooliganism which would have a penalty in most cultures. Whether or not this sentence is proportionate is a fair question in my view. BUt I have no sympathy for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riots cause and do not consider myself to be their advocate. You are right the powers that be change and sometimes Christian morals are useful to them and sometimes not. But Christians remain Christians regardless of these trends. In the Western European cultures I inhabit the season is already early Autumn in my view and we are accelerating towards Winter.

 

[mindlight]

It sounds to me like you're simply repeating unsubstantiated things that haven't been proven. Doing so doesn't make you the one person who knows what they're talking about (except in your own mind- apparently). When my faith is attacked- I will defend it- and attacking an entire branch of my Church is attacking my faith.

Being accused of being ex-KGB and actually being ex-KGB are two different things. Nothing was substantiated. Also- they ARE my brothers in Christ as I'm also Orthodox. We don't hate Western Christians- but yes- we do believe our Church has the fullness of the faith.

Stalin set up a puppet Patriarch (which I alluded to) and this is the reason the Russian Church was considered compromised by the rest of the Orthodox world for many years. Yet- the same man also was responsible for killing loads of believers as well.

When it comes to these topics I have an interest in it because I share their faith- so I keep up with current events and with the history as well. In fact, here is a website that you should take a look at that has primary sources. It's pretty good and rather detailed, breaking events up by year in a time-line fashion. Much more thorough than the usual wikipedia search done on the fly by some.

Seventeen Moments

It does seem that strong connections remain between the FSB and the Russian Orthodox church and great % of the leaders who were in place under Communism are still there. If this ensures a more Christian outlook to governance and the church maintains an independent voice this does not necessarily have to be a problem though clearly it could be and their is clearly some history to some leaders that is not healthy from a Christian perspective.

Unlike China the Russian government defines itself as a Christian state so FSB intervention is not necessarily antiChristian or controlling in the way that it is in China with the official churches. Rather this intervention is protective of the institutions supremacy. This becomes a problem when conservative Evangelical or Catholic minorites are persecuted by the FSB or exposed to more surveillance because they are not Orthodox. But extra surveillance on Muslims makes sense in the Russian security context.

The FSB: Russia's not so secret service - Defence Viewpoints from UK Defence Forum

 

[Glass*Soul]

Christians should only be honest to what they believe in season and out of it. Blasphemy is an offence that was punishable by death in the israelite culture and in some medieval theocracies. I would prefer to live in a culture with more freedom of speech. But there are limits and what they did in the church was an act of public hooliganism which would have a penalty in most cultures. Whether or not this sentence is proportionate is a fair question in my view. BUt I have no sympathy for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riots cause and do not consider myself to be their advocate. You are right the powers that be change and sometimes Christian morals are useful to them and sometimes not. But Christians remain Christians regardless of these trends. In the Western European cultures I inhabit the season is already early Autumn in my view and we are accelerating towards Winter.

You mentioned only blasphemy in your OP. That is why I addressed it as I did.

 

[OGM]

P***y Riot is a terrible group. Their music gives me a headache. Nevertheless, having them go to jail was stupid.