Church/Seminaries & Exclusion of Minority: Why are Blacks/3rd World insights ignored?

[Gxg (G²)]

Catholic missionary efforts in the Third World are vibrant, and have always been so. Catholics were the first evangelizers to the Mexicans, Africans, and South Americans. Usually Catholic missionaries went with the explorers in order to reign in the Conqustadores and preserve the rights of the native people.

As noted earlier (from http://www.christianforums.com/t7792345/#post64653890 ), my speaking of many Catholic Churches not valuing insights from 3rd world nations and Blacks isn't the same as saying that there have been NO valuing of such in any place. For there have been many wonderful things done by those in the Catholic Church for Blacks and others in the 3rd world - even though there has also been some very negative things said about groups that many Catholics said they were concerned about.

Many times, when it came to missions, there were times where it seemed to be the case that the missions were done to make way for colonialism and other negatives. But there is no denying how much significant scarring has been done from Imperialistic demonstrations of "Christianity". Its easily seen in how many Indigenious peoples carry this cultural memory with them whenever it comes to Mass: That the God who saves is also the God in whose name the conquerors attempted to remake a continent. ]


One of the best films on the matter that comes to my mind is one I saw in Highschool---entitled "The Mission" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmUxkdTZY18 ), with Robert Denerio. The film is set during the Jesuit Reductions, a program by which Jesuit missionaries set up missions independent of the Spanish state to teach Christianity to the natives. It tells the story of a Spanish Jesuit priest, Father Gabriel (Jeremy Irons), who enters the South American jungle to build a mission and convert a community of Guaraní Indians to Christianity. He is later joined by a reformed Spanish mercenary, Rodrigo Mendoza (Robert De Niro), who sees the Jesuit mission as a sanctuary and a place of forgiveness for the murder of his brother. Mendoza and Gabriel try to defend the community against the cruelty of Portuguese colonials (who are trying to enslave the Guaraní under the new powers granted by the Treaty of Madrid), Gabriel by nonviolent means and Mendoza by means of his military training.

The mission, which was once under Spanish protection, has been handed over to the Portuguese while the Vatican (represented by Papal emissary Altamirano) has ordered the Jesuits to withdraw from the territory above the falls. Eventually, a combined Spanish and Portuguese force attacks the mission and, failing to see the simple life of the Guarani as anything but threatening (contrary to Father Gabriel and Mendoza's experiences with them), kill many of them as well as all the priests.

To be clear, what happened with the Catholic Church also went down with countless other =denominations outside of them for centuries...those who did the same in their own circles when it comes to American Indian treatment in the name of "Christ

Nonetheless, there were still many instances where things went well for the people being reached out to due to how the hearts of others and how they saw it.

With places like Japanese culture, for example, Christianity made in-roads into Japan in the times of the Roman/Byzantine Empire and the Silk Road. I am reminded of how the Syriac church and Assyrian Church of the East made many inroads into Japan ( shared here/ here/ and here). Syrian Nestorianism in Japan is hard to avoid historically when it comes to the facts.

And with Catholics impacting in positive manners, I am again reminded of people such as St.Francis Xavier (perhaps the greatest Jesuit Missionary to Japan, who traveled throughout Asia and spread the Gospel in revolutionary ways..prior to the massive persecutions that nearly wiped Christianity out in the areas he resided in and other things went down).

After Commodore Matthew Perry used gun boat diplomacy to force the Tokugawa shogunate in Edo to open its doors to trade, it was revealed that even after two hundred years of suppression there were still tens of thousands of practicing Christians in Japan. Many of the rites and rituals which had been taught to them by St. Francis Xavier and the other Jesuit missionaries were still in use but having been transmitted as an oral tradition they survived only in a highly mutated form - if aware of the Kakure Kirishitans (more in http://www.christianforums.com/t7716420-19/#post63388106 andhere, here and here ) and them having to go underground to practice Christianity while also having many aspects of Christianity blended with much imagery/expression from what they saw in the cultures surrounding them from which anime has often derived its religious roots (i.e. Shintoism, Taoism, etc.) to survive - making their version of Christianity distinctly different from anything present in European versions akin to the Crusaders.

Of course, with Japan's Hidden Christians, persecution appeared as early as the 1560s when an unnamed woman was beheaded for the crime of praying in front of a cross. And extreme cruelty took place that many never had to deal with. Prior to the event where the 26 Martyrs of Nagasaki were crucified — a 12-year-old boy was among them — their right ears were cut off, and the prisoners displayed in carts - and the Japanese authorities executed over 4,000 people in a mere 30-year period - with thousands more being tortured, with methods ranging from snake and excreta pits to amputations, water torture, branding, upside down suspension, and suffocation among them....and when seeing that background, I am not surprised that thousands of converts would go underground after the banning of Christianity and consequently created a syncretic form of the faith.

But the fact that Catholics helped to shape the way in which others in Japan uniquely expressed Christianity is wild...and that's something I wished was discussed more by many.


In addition to that, I find it fascinating that there was Christian presence there among the Samurai. A Samurai mindset - where the concepts of Honor/Shame were a BIG deal (as with many things in Eastern culture) - and it wasn't seen as honorable to have malice toward your enemy even as you seek to defeat or restrain him - well, it is interesting to see how there were other saints who were Samurais (with Japan already having amazing believers in her history) - others seeing themselves as Christian Samurai's ...or who, in essence, consider themselves "Kurisuchan" (クリスチャン&#20365, or a samurai who has the mind of a Christian - or the mind of Christ. ..and serve the Lord.

​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

White-washing takes time and once it occurs, it literally leaves the wrong impression of things being better than they really are.

That said, respectfully, in regards to the content material of the OP, it's asked that one keep things to themselves if what is said has nothing to do with the subject or similar.

So what are you implying?


.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sorting protagonist/antagonist by cultural attributes has long been the stuff of ( esp., it seems modern) culture.

(And Disney still operates in this visual language, long has.).

Not certain fully as to what you mean - although if you mean in regards to cultural domination and stereotyping of groups, I can definitely see that occurring. The book you told me off once - entitled How to Read Donald Duck: Imperialist Ideology in the Disney Comic (more here ) - was truly excellent when it came to the enormity of Diney's propaganda campaign to portray the third world as a place to be exploited - portraying other cultural enemies of the U.S in the worst ways and other cultures the U.S wished to dominate (such as Latin America) in ways mocking them and making it seem as if it was meant to be natural.




And for other works of Disney and propaganda :

• The Late Movies: Disney Propaganda Cartoons |
• Frames of Anime: Culture and Image-Building -
• How Walt Disney Influenced Anime | The Movie Blog
• Donald Versus Hitler: Walt Disney and the Art of WWII
• Donald Duck's Bad Nazi Dream and Four Other Disney
• The Forgotten Wartime Disney Films | AftertheMouse

Wartime Disney Propaganda - YouTube​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Gxg (G²)
Do ya think you can make that picture just a little larger......I am still have trouble seeing it.....



.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sorting protagonist/antagonist by cultural attributes has long been the stuff of ( esp., it seems modern) culture.

Cultures often demand that there be an enemy to focus on in order to unite others together - even if that enemy is one whom others aren't really with history where they were hurt by them.

Scape-goating and justification of aggression go hand-in-hand..

Some of this arises from an immediate experience (ex. the Ottoman attempts to conquer Europe), where manner of dress is associated with/provokes fear.

This seemed to come up a lot at times with Muslim dress in 3rd world places where other believers were told they couldn't dress a certain way due to how others had associated it to be tied to the "enemy side."

Thus, for a woman in a Catholic of Protestant Church wearing a head covering similar to what she grew up with in Muslim culture, she'd be shunned and humiliated even though she was told correct doctrine on how Jesus loved her - while the community would act counter to the Love of Christ due to their hatred/fear. The same goes for having to change their names to sound more American or Western and yet knowing that was not what they were like fully when it came to their own cultural background (more shared in Pilgrims of Christ on the Muslim Road: Exploring a New Path Between Two Faiths - Paul-Gordon Chandler - Google Books ).

Time can erase these traumas, but anything that appeals fully to history (when aware of the inputs to such selection, ie not sub-conscious) is apt to include them. (And there is also the problem when making an historical document; when we are making history - ie in the present - we are also "making" the way that our present as history can be 'accurately' portrayed.)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that some times how we relate to others is something that takes time and that we don't realize is influenced on the sub-conscious level.....and that many times, we know that the present will be seen as the past at some point and thus we often try to alter the ways that we present current stances so as to have the best spin on it...correct?

There is also the safety of using long past history as a model for description - as the manner of portrayal is in the present applicable to no-one.

If you'd not mind expounding, I'd appreciate it.

And text is unable to portray what in the visual media is a symbolic language; consider how in the link I posted some thought the inhabitants depicted in Hell were all dark skinned, when in fact they were multiracial but had been depicted as darkened reflecting Hell as "hidden" and a place where one cannot see the other next to him. (Contrast to Heaven as a place of light, and thus the washed out visage of those in the depiction.)

Sometimes, in agreement with what you noted, there is the reality that our own biases can make us assume that certain elements have a racial background to them.

It's amazing how many have been trained to think dark or black is automatically symbolic of "evil" whereas anything white or light is symbolic of "good" - even though there are plenty of things with those descriptions that can go both ways. And you always bring that to the table. If someone knows how leprosy leads to skin being as white as snow, them seeing white automatically entails (in many cases) that someone is diseased in some manner....and of course, pale being a sign of sickly or ghostly rather than meaning transcendent or redeemed as many see it. The same goes with black - which can also be a sign of beauty or night time or peace and other things.

I do wonder if the transferal of our culture to literate (as opposed to symbolic/visual/metaphoric) has in some sense contributed to this phenomenon (as language is now asked to go beyond the boundaries of the medium). Especially as we have somewhat "lost the knowledge" of the 'language of the visual' (well, except in advertising see, Berger, Ways of Seeing, etc.), or are less alert to this language and thus hold the language but without the appropriate interpretive skill.

The interpretive skill often has to do with the ways that people sharing how to interpret have a bias and may advocate as they do based on what they'd prefer - imagery is powerful.

It is why the imagery of a Black Pope was such a powerful thing for many when seeing it historically even though others felt it was no big deal - for they didn't have to deal continually with seeing others say that black automatically meant something was negative and all portrayals of the Pope they saw were European and not having dark shades.

An interesting study on the issue, if interested:


Black doll White doll - YouTube

Doll Test - YouTube

Study shows how children view race bias - YouTube

These things are often not even considered because others don't give a second thought to them - and it's the same with regards to theology. The doctrines brought forth from schools aren't something many are concerned for as much as the IMAGE of those presenting - for if the only ones seen to be major founders/leaders in a camp all look to be from one group even as others say the theology is for EVERYONE, then it sends a message of inequality.

Many minorities have brought this up when it comes to the ways that there are multicultural communities churches can be set up in.......and yet in churches where you have all types of ethnicities, the imagery - from children's church books with pictures of Biblical stories to images of leaders/teachers - are all European. The people diverse in a parish are the members....but not the platform.

In acting, it would seem that bias in casting may appeal both to the cultural more of the time, and whatever method (no pun intended ) is au courant in the field. Erasing class barriers may be as much of an issue in the mind of the casting agent and director (ie, not only what the audience expects, but what experience the actor has to draw from in creating/filling the character). An actor at the top of her/his craft surely can exceed this impediment, and any actor with a good director moreso. But it seems quite interesting that the actors who really broke the color line in film were seen as "refined" (Sidney Poitier, Lena Horne).

As amazing as Sidney and Lena are, it's amazing that many have noted them to be "Tokens" - people who got in due to how they fit an idea of what the dominant culture wanted to be comfortable with.....while others who didn't seem as "refined" never made it. It's something that really has to do with how wide someone's scope is....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg (G²)
Do ya think you can make that picture just a little larger......I am still have trouble seeing it.....



.

Respectfully (and not asking a second time) - unless you have comments pertaining to the OP subject itself, it is detracting from the content and subject...and can easily be seen as being off topic. It is not needed nor asked to be present in the thread (apart from the rules on the issue)- and if unable to respect that, the thread is not for you. It's really not a difficult concept For this is NOT a thread for making knocks on pictures (as has occurred before ) nor a thread where one may choose to avoid addressing the OP subject/content - sensitive as it is due to the nature of the topic. It is about real discussion on the issue of Blacks, Minorities, culture and how the Church should address it. Period.

I don't care to report anything since it's expected people can be respectful enough to keep comments to themselves that either take time only to focus on mock/coarse jesting (for the sake of provoking), drive-by commentary or make comments that don't really don't deal with the subject. However, as the subject is a serious one, it is a serious issue when one doesn't respect that. ..or seems to avoid that. If it's unintentional, that's one thing and that can happen - but when it's intentional, that's not cool.

So what are you implying?

Exactly what I said plainly (As nothing was implied) - comments not pertaining to the OP or being off-topic are not asked to be present in the discussion. Either one respects that - or they don't.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Most Catholic seminaries in the US are full of people from many parts of the world.

They make great efforts to have the people from the developing world teach those of the developed world.

Indeed. I've seen many that are indeed as you noted - although what seems reflected in some is sad when seeing how much history on diversity in Catholicism is forgotten.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Church/Seminaries & Exclusion of Minority: Why are Blacks/3rd World insights ignored?

Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)

We see the reality of white-washing even in Christian literature...and that's a BIG problem, IMHO.
​

Sorting protagonist/antagonist by cultural attributes has long been the stuff of ( esp., it seems modern) culture.

In acting, it would seem that bias in casting may appeal both to the cultural more of the time, and whatever method (no pun intended ) is au courant in the field. Erasing class barriers may be as much of an issue in the mind of the casting agent and director (ie, not only what the audience expects, but what experience the actor has to draw from in creating/filling the character). An actor at the top of her/his craft surely can exceed this impediment, and any actor with a good director moreso.
But it seems quite interesting that the actors who really broke the color line in film were seen as "refined" (Sidney Poitier, Lena Horne).

I would also tend to agree with that.

Ever see the movie "Carbon Copy" [Denzel Washinton's first movie btw]

Vivian: "God will never forgive you for having a black child!"

Walter: "Maybe He will be pleased, maybe God is black!"

Carbon Copy (1981) trailer - YouTube


.

 

[Thekla]

Although an aside, what perplexes me is the creation of the construct of "race" which underlies the phenomenon.

The understanding of "ethnoi" (NT term meaning nation) in earlier times relied not on one's physical attributes, but one's language and culture. At least from what I know, race was not such an issue in early Christianity - the writings of the fathers, the Saints - all these crossed what we now would call "racial" lines. People in art from medieval Europe even crossed "racial lines" So when was race "invented", and what purpose did it serve ?

An interesting aside, Slav means "slave", as the Slavs were the preferred source for European slaves. The selection of Russians (from Rus, the name applied by their Swedish "overlords") for this purpose seemed to rely on their identity as "Asian"; as not all Russians/Slavs look Asian by modern race standards, then this must also refer to culture. In Africa also, the slave trade relied on choosing subjects that were not of one's tongue nor culture.

I haven't much time, but it does seem that "race/color/appearance" as a construct/view arose around the same time as the rise of the Nation States (which overturned the ancient understanding of ethnoi). And, per the record of needing to divide an underclass class for preservation of the status quo (US), then political and economic systems are implicated in this development.

How this applies to the present situation in the OP ? I'm not sure. Except acculturation, and perhaps the possibility that race (and class) have so divided our experience that there is not awareness of these writings, that the writings are viewed as particular to a circumstance ...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Although an aside, what perplexes me is the creation of the construct of "race" which underlies the phenomenon.

The understanding of "ethnoi" (NT term meaning nation) in earlier times relied not on one's physical attributes, but one's language and culture. At least from what I know, race was not such an issue in early Christianity - the writings of the fathers, the Saints - all these crossed what we now would call "racial" lines. People in art from medieval Europe even crossed "racial lines" So when was race "invented", and what purpose did it serve ?

Very excellent question on the subject - as racial had an entirely different background and perspective in earlier times than it does today.

An interesting aside, Slav means "slave", as the Slavs were the preferred source for European slaves. The selection of Russians (from Rus, the name applied by their Swedish "overlords") for this purpose seemed to rely on their identity as "Asian"; as not all Russians/Slavs look Asian by modern race standards, then this must also refer to culture. In Africa also, the slave trade relied on choosing subjects that were not of one's tongue nor culture.

Sometimes, with slavery, there were others chosen from their own culture....

And with the Russian aspect, it's interesting to consider the ways that groups become unified by force and yet may not consider themselves truly Russian. Years ago, I got down doing a research project with a Russian student whom I came to admire greatly for a variety of reasons/learned much from (as discussed here, for anyone interested in what was said). And what I was talking about with dual identity, I am reminded of others trying to rail against the Tadjiks or Uzbeks/Central Asians.

It's interesting to consider what happens with groups from Central Asia in how they may get mistreated and have that mistreatment added on top of the struggles they already had before. In specific, I'm thinking of those who are Central Asian Jews and the struggles they had as being firstly Jewish...and then secondly apart of the Russian culture, with their Jewishness being something that was often despised and then complicated by the struggles of also being Central Asian in a culture they wish to adapt to--but rarely find acceptance in at many points.

With the Jews , although many have left Russia/Ukraine, I've been tripped out seeing how many Jewish communities have decided to stay in Russia and set up camp. As said elsewhere, it's amazing to consider the battles occurring in Russia's Far East--and the struggles of those in Russian who are Central Asian Jews. They have enormous struggles , firstly with being Jewish...and then secondly being Central Asian. It can be complicated for them being apart of the Russian culture, with their Jewishness being something that was often despised and then complicated by the struggles of also being Central Asian in a culture they wish to adapt to--but rarely find acceptance in due to the stances others have about immigrants. For reference:

• Bukharan Jews
• "The History of Bukharian Jews"
• History of Bukharian Jews - Beth Gavriel Center
• "Bukharan Jews – History and Cultural Relations
• The history of the Central Asian republics
• Russia and east Asia: the 21st century security environment
• Moving Back Into the Orbit? - Russia's Influence in Central Asia
• Culture and customs of the Central Asian republics By Rafis Abazov
• Russia, the Caucasus, and Central Asia: the 21st century security ...
• Central Asians under Russian rule: a study in culture change - Page 22
• Russian Jews on three continents: migration and resettlement - Page 150
• The new Central Asia: the regional impact of international actors - Page 149
• Russia's protectorates in Central Asia: Bukhara and Khiva, 1865-1924 - Page 130
• "Looking Out for One's Own Identity: Central Asian Jews in the Wake of Communism
• Russian Central Asia: including Kuldja, Bokhara, Khiva and Merv: Volume 2 - Page 105

Interesting, IMHO...for someone who is Jewish and yet Russian will not always see themselves as needing to fit in with a dominant view - or be like pieces on a chess board when it comes to asking for solidarity in tough times for the sake of the larger group - as if their views are now to suddenly become relevant and discussed because the dominant group is in danger of another threat mistreating them or not taking their own views seriously.

I haven't much time, but it does seem that "race/color/appearance" as a construct/view arose around the same time as the rise of the Nation States (which overturned the ancient understanding of ethnoi). And, per the record of needing to divide an underclass class for preservation of the status quo (US), then political and economic systems are implicated in this development.

True...

How this applies to the present situation in the OP ? I'm not sure. Except acculturation, and perhaps the possibility that race (and class) have so divided our experience that there is not awareness of these writings, that the writings are viewed as particular to a circumstance ..

Some things do happen over time without true awareness...

 

[Thekla]

Not certain fully as to what you mean - although if you mean in regards to cultural domination and stereotyping of groups, I can definitely see that occurring. The book you told me off once - entitled How to Read Donald Duck: Imperialist Ideology in the Disney Comic (more here ) - was truly excellent when it came to the enormity of Diney's propaganda campaign to portray the third world as a place to be exploited - portraying other cultural enemies of the U.S in the worst ways and other cultures the U.S wished to dominate (such as Latin America) in ways mocking them and making it seem as if it was meant to be natural.

• The Late Movies: Disney Propaganda Cartoons |
• Frames of Anime: Culture and Image-Building -
• How Walt Disney Influenced Anime | The Movie Blog
• Donald Versus Hitler: Walt Disney and the Art of WWII
• Donald Duck's Bad Nazi Dream and Four Other Disney
• The Forgotten Wartime Disney Films | AftertheMouse

Wartime Disney Propaganda - YouTube​

Alaeddin was a recent example (note skin tone and character):

The 9 Most Racist Disney Characters | Cracked.com

It's Racist, But Hey, It's Disney - NYTimes.com

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Gxg (G²)
Do ya think you can make that picture just a little larger......I am still have trouble seeing it.....


​

Respectfully (and not asking a second time) - unless you have comments pertaining to the OP subject itself, it is detracting from the content and subject...and can easily be seen as being off topic. It is not needed nor asked to be present in the thread (apart from the rules on the issue)- and if unable to respect that, the thread is not for you. It's really not a difficult concept For this is NOT a thread for making knocks on pictures (as has occurred before ) nor a thread where one may choose to avoid addressing the OP subject/content - sensitive as it is due to the nature of the topic. It is about real discussion on the issue of Blacks, Minorities, culture and how the Church should address it. Period.

I don't care to report anything since it's expected people can be respectful enough to keep comments to themselves that either take time only to focus on mock/coarse jesting (for the sake of provoking), drive-by commentary or make comments that don't really don't deal with the subject. However, as the subject is a serious one, it is a serious issue when one doesn't respect that. ..or seems to avoid that. If it's unintentional, that's one thing and that can happen - but when it's intentional, that's not cool.

Exactly what I said plainly (As nothing was implied) - comments not pertaining to the OP or being off-topic are not asked to be present in the discussion. Either one respects that - or they don't.

Ok.....



.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Alaeddin was a recent example (note skin tone and character):

The 9 Most Racist Disney Characters | Cracked.com

It's Racist, But Hey, It's Disney - NYTimes.com

Got ya...

Yeah, with Aladdin, that was something amazing to consider in hindsight when you love the video as a kid - and yet, as you get older, you realize how much the same videos you watched at homes or in church (for child care) were based entirely on the misrepresentation and hurt of another group who never liked it.....and that's something many churches don't really care to discuss even as they present the Gospel.

The story "Mickey Mouse and the Boy called Thursday" is perhaps one of the most BIZZARE tales I've ever seen...

But it occurs whenever there are stereotypes on who others are. The same thing occurred in Christian circles as seen with what MANY believers called out when it came to Lifeway Christian Bookstore having an "Asia Day!!" advertisment with every kind of stereotype on Asians that could be developed - and many Evangelicals were bothered by the ignorance of the actions as well as thinking it was all good because the goal was the Gospel...

RACISM AT LIFEWAY PUBLISHING!, ASIAN STEREOTYPES,CCDA 2009 LECTURE, SOONG-CHAN RAH, www.profrah.com - YouTube
CCDA 2009 PART 3, LECTURE SERIES MULTI ETHNICITY, SOONG-CHAN RAH , www.profrah.com - YouTube
The New Face of Evangelicalism - YouTube​

Rick Warren also got into trouble recently when it came to an image he placed up of Asians that was highly irreverent (As noted here and here and here). The controversy was surrounding Rick Warren’s (Pastor of Saddleback Church) posting on Facebook relating his staff team to a picture of the Chinese Red Guard. And on where I stand, I believe the picture he posted represents a gross lack of cultural and racial literacy..

But of course, this isn't the first time Warren was approached by Asian-Americans - and others at Lifeway were approached with their promotion of Lifeway's racist Rickshaw Rally curriculum....something Lifeway FINALLY apologized for. . Soong-Chan Rah was the one who spearheaded the protest movement against Lifeway's racist Rickshaw Rally curriculum a few years back, and more recently, racially insensitive content in Zondervan's Skits That Teach: Speaking Up for Asian Americans. The materials featured egregious Asian stereotypes intended to be seen and heard by Christian youth. ...and that's a pretty horrible thought, considering that for a lot kids, these stereotypes and caricatures might actually be their first interaction with Asian peope and culture. While the controversy over Rickshaw Rally caused a ruckus, it never seemed to pick up support. ....and unfortunately, the publisher Lifeway refused to acknowledge any harm or wrongdoing on their part. Thankfully, Rev. Rah's dealings with Zondervan proved to be quite productive, with the publisher apologizing and taking drastic measures to rectify the situation. Although it was a small victory, it was a very big deal.

And a BIG reflection on what I've pointed out before when it comes to insights from other minority groups not being considered in the everyday context of Christianity in the Dominant culture.

For more:

• LifeWay's Asian-Themed VBS Material Draws Protests on EthicsDaily.com

• Rickshaw Rally redux | Resist racism

• Lifeway | A Christian Thing

• Revenge of the Rickshaw Rally by Daniel Fan | Ethnic Space Blog

• Dear Pastor Rick Warren, I Think You Don’t Get It | More Than Serving Tea

• An open letter to Zondervan and to Mike Foster and Jud Wilhite, authors of Deadly Viper Character Assassin: A Kung Fu Survival Guide for Life and Leadership. | Prof. Rah's Blog

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If Christendom wasn't racist in the first centuries, there's no reason it should be racist now.

We're all the same race, I don't understand how racism began in the first place to be honest. Whites and blacks loping goes back all the way back to the Egyptians- we recognize each other as people, and according to Egyptian mythology, quite a few gods were black.

One solid book on the issue that may be of blessing to you on the subject is entitled Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks

​

 

[Thekla]

One solid book on the issue that may be of blessing to you on the subject is entitled Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks

​

In a sense, appearance has replaced tongue/culture.

(And ancient writings do report admiration for what cultures that are not one's own have achieved.)

 

[ebia]

Pope Francis is from a 3rd world country

And a Jesuit (and therefore familiar with Francis Xavier)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In a sense, appearance has replaced tongue/culture.

(And ancient writings do report admiration for what cultures that are not one's own have achieved.)

Things have become more shallow where we are in our times of course...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And a Jesuit (and therefore familiar with Francis Xavier)

So glad for the example of St. Francis Xavier leading the way as he did with missions and witnessing....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In a sense, appearance has replaced tongue/culture.
)

What is noted here also can pertain to what happens when appearance is used to be the barometer of one's tongue/culture. I'm reminded of what was noted elsewhere when other Orthodox were noting the reality of how to treat those who are deemed "poor white trash" or "gutter people" and how often it seems that their views are not really reflected in the Church even if they look ethnically the same as others due to their own dress. People whose parents started out in a trailer, who wore flour sacks and burlap bags as a child, and never had a pair of shoes until 3 years old...and heard the term 'white trash' being used at them.

Being in different Orthodox parishes, dressing nice/business casual is expected from what I've experienced - and others have pointed out several Orthodox pamphlets that are very clear that one should dress for church with no jeans, no shorts, or no t-shirts. ...the styles others are involved in from those considered "poor white trash" as defined in Austin, Texas. It raises questions of wow welcome would others be to them or to a street person who entered worship services - and although I know of parishes who've welcomed the most extreme in dress or others who appeared rough (including many of the homeless) for liturgy and minister to them with NO issue since their heart is for serving for the people as Christ did, it's amazing that other parishes don't do such.

And as other Orthodox said best (for brief excerpt):

We've got a family from a poorer region of the DFW metroplex in our parish--he's a blue-collar biker w/long hair who comes in jeans, sandals and a t-shirt quite a bit of the time.

I personally long for the day when those of lower socio-economic groups can feel at home in Orthodox churches. I know some folks in my parish would be horrified were this to start happening on a grand scale (the abovementioned family is very persistent and willing to stick it out regardless of what certain prominent members think, much to the annoyance of said prominent members).

Put it this way: until Orthodoxy can be made palatable to certain groups of people...

...the average, blue-collar bubba...
...the immigrant Mexican mechanic...
...the African-American factory worker playing dominoes on his day off...

...and still be Orthodoxy, it's not come into its full missionary potential in this country. God hasten the day it can do this.


....there's plenty for uneducated, so-called "simpler" folks to latch on to, cherish, and claim for their own within the Faith. That's wonderful that folks have Orthodoxy as a part of the fabric of the culture (whether actually practiced or not by most folks), since there's more of an ability to connect through that predominant culture, as you said.

However, it's been (in)famously said that, here in America, the most segregated time of the week is ten o'clock on Sunday morning. Blacks go to black churches, whites go to white churches, the Mexicans go to their Catholic church, etc. For want of a predominant culture, not only does Orthodoxy not provide for that connection (like you said) but is sectioned off into its own little niche of "Arab/Russian/Greek Church" for those from other countries who practice the faith here, or "Whitebread bookish convert Church" for those of us who came in later.

...

I wonder if the problem is really that Orthodoxy is not "palatable".

Walking through the streets of Athens two years ago, I remember coming across a few people begging in the street or street vendors peddling booklets or little gadgets like those things that hang off your cell phone and which light up when it rings. On Sunday, I attended Liturgy at the Annunciation Cathedral, and recognised two of the beggars and peddlers I had seen in the streets during the week.

I think this is how the Church is meant to be. It is a place where different people with different life stories come together in the Unity of something Higher than socio-economics, social status, politics etc. In Church, the Socialist meets the Capitalist, the Prostitute meets the Nun, the rich meet the poor.....

I wonder if the alienation from Orthodoxy which the poor in America experience is not so much the problem with Orthodoxy being unpalatable to them, but rather, that they already feel alienated from the American Community and society. In Greece, connecting with the Community of Believers in Church brings with it some connection to Greek Society and social Community. In America, connecting with the Community of the Orthodox Church is no guarantee of connection to American Society and Social Community (unless, perhaps, you attain a status recognised outside of the Church, such as a member of the clergy or an author), otherwise, for "ordinary laity" the social alienation continues outside the Church Community.

with the Mexicans I have encountered visiting the church, I see a great deal of familiarity in their eyes... for some almost too familiar. Having grown up most likely in Roman Catholic homes, Orthodoxy may just seem the same to them, just perhaps a little fancier and with some incomprehensable giberish (Greek, Arabic, Slavonic) thrown in. And they have said as much. I've heard some say "It's all the same to me. Just no statues." Now there are a few who stick around long enough to fins out otherwise, but, at least in my parish, to date, there is no significant number of Mexicans.

As for evangelism itself, I think Clark Carlton said it best on his second to last podcast "God does all the heavy lifting. We are to transform ourselves and work on our salvation first, and others will follow."

​

[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Thekla]

What is noted here also can pertain to what happens when appearance is used to be the barometer of one's tongue/culture. I'm reminded of what was noted elsewhere when other Orthodox were noting the reality of how to treat those who are deemed "poor white trash" or "gutter people" and how often it seems that their views are not really reflected in the Church even if they look ethnically the same as others due to their own dress. People whose parents started out in a trailer, who wore flour sacks and burlap bags as a child, and never had a pair of shoes until 3 years old...and heard the term 'white trash' being used at them.

Being in different Orthodox parishes, dressing nice/business casual is expected from what I've experienced - and others have pointed out several Orthodox pamphlets that are very clear that one should dress for church with no jeans, no shorts, or no t-shirts. ...the styles others are involved in from those considered "poor white trash" as defined in Austin, Texas. It raises questions of wow welcome would others be to them or to a street person who entered worship services - and although I know of parishes who've welcomed the most extreme in dress or others who appeared rough (including many of the homeless) for liturgy and minister to them with NO issue since their heart is for serving for the people as Christ did, it's amazing that other parishes don't do such.

And as other Orthodox said best (for brief excerpt):

The second generation Churches are an interesting "problem".

In Greece, the last metropolitan was quite open to any form of dress (ie to accept anyone), and the old world has still the "holy fools" which are reminders there ... in the new world (as one bishop observed) the "holy fools" would likely be imprisoned etc. by the secular authorities.

I will say that in every parish we've attended, there have been some of us who were of little means -- but were amply (and quietly) helped by individuals in the parish. Ie, one would not notice by clothing the actual difference in income within the community.

Of course many in these parishes were dirt poor when arriving in the US, and some in the parishes still are. (Though much is made of ethnic churches, in our parish we are about 30% recent immigrants and many older immigrants who don't have much English - hence the bilingual services so that all may pray in their language of prayer. In fact, in every parish, my apparently not-Greek family have been warmly welcomed by many who don't speak English.)

So speaking from experience (three parishes, and visits to Antiochian and Russian parishes) I haven't really experienced what the author points to; ie I really can't comment except from speculation.

The Serbs and Arabs in this country have had a pretty rough time of it recently w/ the secular US culture - I would not be surprised if they were thus a bit wary with "outsiders".

(To add, in each parish I have received very quiet and gentle inquiries about the "means" of new families that I have been observed interacting with - from parishioners.)