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Strong Evidence for the Peleg state change

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dad

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dad, what KTS has been pointing out to you that if you have two independent nuclear clocks, say Rubidium/Strontium and Uranium/Lead, the only way that anyone has explained the resulting isotope ratios is if radiometric dating is correct.

Give an example.


Correct inside your theory is one thing, but let's see it stand up here. What I will demonstrate is that all your clocks are really set to the present state. All. Every one. I kid you not.


Simply appealing to an imaginary previous state is not good enough.
Simply appealing to an imaginary previous state is not good enough. Better to look at actual ancient records and what God said. The same state past is an imaginary previous state, and a real present one.


You have to show a mechanism for getting the same date with two different independent clocks.
Try a method that does not base itself on a belief in a same state past if you want to claim 'two different independent clocks'!!! You have ONE clock, the present state. End of story.
So how do you explain the accumulation of decay products? Be precise.
What 'accumulation' do you claim happened in the last 4500 years!!!!!!!??? Not much! The rest would likely have been here. What is hard about that???
 
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Subduction Zone

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Give an example.


Correct inside your theory is one thing, but let's see it stand up here. What I will demonstrate is that all your clocks are really set to the present state. All. Every one. I kid you not.


Simply appealing to an imaginary previous state is not good enough. Better to look at actual ancient records and what God said. The same state past is an imaginary previous state, and a real present one.


Try a method that does not base itself on a belief in a same state past if you want to claim 'two different independent clocks'!!! You have ONE clock, the present state. End of story.
What 'accumulation' do you claim happened in the last 4500 years!!!!!!!??? Not much! The rest would likely have been here. What is hard about that???
We have already gone over the "God said" nonsense. The Bible is terribly flawed and it is blasphemy to claim it is the "word of God".

Until you come up with something better than that you lose.

Remember, Tyre is still there. It was never destroyed. You can find it on Google Earth.
 
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Kylie

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Give an example.

He gave you one! The fact that we can use both Rubidium/Strontium and Uranium/Lead to date objects and they give ages that agree.

Like I said, do you even bother to read posts?

Correct inside your theory is one thing, but let's see it stand up here. What I will demonstrate is that all your clocks are really set to the present state. All. Every one. I kid you not.

It happens in reality. And the only way it can happen in reality is if there has never been a different past state.

Simply appealing to an imaginary previous state is not good enough. Better to look at actual ancient records and what God said. The same state past is an imaginary previous state, and a real present one.

You're the one appealing to imaginary past states.

Try a method that does not base itself on a belief in a same state past if you want to claim 'two different independent clocks'!!! You have ONE clock, the present state. End of story.

Again, you are ignorant of radioactive decay. We have TWO clocks. We have a Rubidium/Strontium clock and we have a Uranium/Lead clock. TWO clocks that are both INDEPENDENT of each other.

What 'accumulation' do you claim happened in the last 4500 years!!!!!!!??? Not much! The rest would likely have been here. What is hard about that???

And as I have asked you MANY TIMES, if most of the decay products were here before your alleged state change, how do you explain the fact that they are in EXACTLY the right ratios to match millions of years of decay?

You only have two options here, dad. Either the amounts are the result of an unimaginable coincidence, or they are the result of millions of years of radioactive decay.

Which is it to be? This is at least the third time I have asked you this. When are you going to answer?
 
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AV1611VET

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Would any of you deep timers care to address my point that if [sup]238[/sup]U decayed to Rn over a period of 4 billion years, then why is [sup]238[/sup]U still around?

Is it being replenished ex materia from a specific source?
 
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Kylie

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Would any of you deep timers care to address my point that if [sup]238[/sup]U decayed to Rn over a period of 4 billion years, then why is [sup]238[/sup]U still around?

Is it being replenished ex materia from a specific source?

It is still around because you do not understand what half life means.

Have a look at this: Uranium-238 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uranium 238 has a half life of 4.468 billion years. We'll call it 4.5 billion years just to make things a bit easier for us to work out, okay? And Uranium 238 decays (by way of thorium-234 and protactinium-234) into uranium-234. So as it decays, it goes from Uranium 238 to Thorium 234, protactinium 234 and then uranium 234.

Let's just deal with the first step for now. Uranium 238 decays into Thorium 234. Now, Uranium 238 has a half life of 4.5 billion years. That means that if I had a lump of Uranium 238, I would see half of it decay into Thorium 234 in that 4.5 billion years. It doesn't matter how big the lump is to begin with. In four and a half billion years, half of the uranium would decay into thorium.

But after ANOTHER 4.5 billion years, we wouldn't see the second half decay away to nothing. We'd see the second half decay by 50%. We'd still have 25% left. It's like taking a block and cutting it in half. Then take one of those halves and cut that in half as well. You're left with a quarter of the original block. And if you cut that quarter in half, you;re left with 12.5%. And so on.

Now, eventually you'll get to a point where the amount you're left with is so small you can't really detect it. Once we get to that point we can't make measurements accurate enough to use it as a clock.

This is why carbon dating isn't a good technique for very old things. Carbon 14 has a short half life and it decays too quickly to be used for anything other than recent things. We just can't measure the tiny amounts of carbon 14 left in very old samples to get a reliable result. But we do have materials that have longer half lives which we can use. In fact, there are a wide variety of materials that all have different half lives, some short and others long, so that we have a good dating method for just about any length of time.

So we still have uranium 238 because it hasn't decayed to the point where we can't reliably detect it.

Does that answer your question?
 
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AV1611VET

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Does that answer your question?

Yes, thank you.

Then I have to ask:

If you're looking at this [sup]234[/sup]Thorium, why do you assume it was [sup]238[/sup]Uranium at one time?

Suppose God created them both ex nihilo (or ex materia) at the same time? or even the Thorium just before the Uranium?

Would you assume the Thorium came into existence after the Uranium?
 
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biggles53

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Yes, thank you.

Then I have to ask:

If you're looking at this [sup]234[/sup]Thorium, why do you assume it was [sup]238[/sup]Uranium at one time?

Suppose God created them both ex nihilo (or ex materia) at the same time? or even the Thorium just before the Uranium?

Would you assume the Thorium came into existence after the Uranium?

I'm not a chemist, but I presume the answer would be that we can observe the uranium which still exists decaying into thorium...?
 
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Kylie

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Yes, thank you.

Then I have to ask:

If you're looking at this [sup]234[/sup]Thorium, why do you assume it was [sup]238[/sup]Uranium at one time?

Suppose God created them both ex nihilo (or ex materia) at the same time? or even the Thorium just before the Uranium?

Would you assume the Thorium came into existence after the Uranium?

Well, I'm glad you;ve learned what a half life is. :)

Well, we can tell by the particular ratios we see between uranium and thorium.

Let's use a simpler example instead of uranium and thorium to illustrate the concept, okay? Let's say we have a parent material P which decays to daughter material D. And then D decays into grandaughter material G. Now, P has a half life of 1000 years. D has a half life of 1000 years and G is stable, so it doesn't decay at all.

So, if I have a lump of P that weighs 100 kilograms, then after a thousand years, half of it will have decayed to D. But, since it doesn't happen all in one go (it happens constantly throughout that 1000 years), during that 1000 years, the D will have also been decaying into G.

So, we've had one half life period for P, so it has decayed by 50%. 50 kilos of the original lump will have decayed into D. So we have 50 kilos of P and 50 kilos that has decayed into D (assuming that the mass of all three materials is the same.)

But the D has passed through a half life period as well. It also has a half life of 1000 years, so half of all the D that was produced by the decay of P has now decayed into G.

So we have 50% P, and of the remaining 50%, half has decayed further to G while the other half has remained as D (and will decay in the future).

So looking at the whole lump, we have 50% P, 25% D and 25% G.

By looking at this ratio, we can conclude that either the D and G is a result of radioactive decay, or we can conclude that somehow the P is much younger and was somehow contaminated with just the right amount of D and just the right of G to make it appear much older than it actually is.

And we can check against this by examining other samples. If we find many samples of P in the particular layer, we know they are the same age (because they are in the same layer. You can't put rocks into a layer once it has formed, after all). So since we know that the samples are all the same age, we can check the ratios of P, D and G we find in each one. If the amount of D and G is a result of contamination, then we would see that the ratios would be different in each sample. After all, it strains credibility to think that contamination would produce IDENTICAL ratios in different samples and this contamination would be in just the right ratios to match what we'd expect to see. It would be like getting everyone on the planet to deal a deck of cards at the same time and everyone deals the cards out in the same order as everyone else. Just not going to happen. So we can discount that possibility. The only other option is to conclude that the sample has indeed been decaying for a thousand years.

In short, we can conclude that the daughter materials were the result of radioactive decay because it is practically impossible for the ratios we see in the real to have been formed by any other way.
 
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biggles53

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Kylie, does my suggestion work..? If we have a sample of uranium, are we able to observe the decay in real time? Can we measure the decrease in mass of the uranium, while measuring a concomitant increase in thorium in the sample?
 
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Subduction Zone

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I'm not a chemist, but I presume the answer would be that we can observe the uranium which still exists decaying into thorium...?

There are different isotopes of Thorium. All of them are radioactive but they have widely varying halflives. The halflife of Th234 is 24.1 days. That means even if the Earth was young that all of the Th234 you observe is a result of nuclear decay of U238.
 
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Kylie

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Kylie, does my suggestion work..? If we have a sample of uranium, are we able to observe the decay in real time? Can we measure the decrease in mass of the uranium, while measuring a concomitant increase in thorium in the sample?

Yeah. We can detect the particles decaying. That's what a Geiger counter does. It has a little sensor that can detect the particles given out as a material decays radioactively, and each time it detects a particle, it clicks. The faster the particles, the more rapid the clicks. You also get a readout as well, so you have a numerical measurement to give you comparisons.

However, we can't measure the decay accurately enough to see the actual amount of uranium change in real time. It decays far too slowly.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Kylie, does my suggestion work..? If we have a sample of uranium, are we able to observe the decay in real time? Can we measure the decrease in mass of the uranium, while measuring a concomitant increase in thorium in the sample?

The decay of uranium in real life is too slow to measure with a scale. If you had a mass spectograph you might be able to measure newly formed Th234 from decay but you would be more likely to analyze a sample of uranium and measure the equilibria amounts of various decay products. A sample of natural uranium will have different amounts of various decay products. It has been way to many years and I have forgotten the math that you would use to determine those levels. But you should be able to see that a decay product with a very short half life would not accumulate as much as a decay product with a long half life.
 
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dad

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There are different isotopes of Thorium. All of them are radioactive but they have widely varying halflives. The halflife of Th234 is 24.1 days. That means even if the Earth was young that all of the Th234 you observe is a result of nuclear decay of U238.
Bingo. So there would be some decay since this state started.
 
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dad

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I'm not a chemist, but I presume the answer would be that we can observe the uranium which still exists decaying into thorium...?
It exists, I agree, but not 'still exists' doing what it did. What it does now, we know.
 
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dad

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We have already gone over the "God said" nonsense. The Bible is terribly flawed and it is blasphemy to claim it is the "word of God".
Scripture is what God said. Even Satan quoted it as such to Jesus. That is absolute.

Mark 4: 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Until you come up with something better than that you lose.
Come on now, don't be childish. This win lose thing.
Remember, Tyre is still there. It was never destroyed. You can find it on Google Earth.
I agree. So? You doubt it will be? We sure got a taste of things to come to say the least! Same deal with Babylon.


Gong.
 
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Kylie

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Bingo. So there would be some decay since this state started.

Did you learn nothing from what I've been saying about how half lives work? It has a half life of three weeks. We'd see it all if the universe was a year old. It lends no support whatsoever to your point. No one has disputed the claim that decay occurs in this state. The point is that the decay product ratios of elements with longer half lives proves that decay has been happening for millions of years.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Scripture is what God said. Even Satan quoted it as such to Jesus. That is absolute.

No, that is a fairy tale.

Come on now, don't be childish. This win lose thing.

Look at your sig. You have been defeated constantly and yet the untruthful claim stands.

I agree. So? You doubt it will be? We sure got a taste of things to come to say the least! Same deal with Babylon.

But that was not what was predicted now was it?


Don't you ever read your own book of myth?
 
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dad

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He gave you one! The fact that we can use both Rubidium/Strontium and Uranium/Lead to date objects and they give ages that agree.
Foolish logic. You impose the same beliefs on each daughter in different materials!!!!! In no way does that translate into real time. It just means there is daughter material in more than one thing.
It happens in reality. And the only way it can happen in reality is if there has never been a different past state.
Stop with the silliness.


You're the one appealing to imaginary past states.
No, I simply point out that science doesn't know. You would be wise to admit that. You are in a no win situation.

Again, you are ignorant of radioactive decay. We have TWO clocks. We have a Rubidium/Strontium clock and we have a Uranium/Lead clock. TWO clocks that are both INDEPENDENT of each other.
No, you don't. You have one clock. Both the materials operate on it and are set to it now. The issue is not now, but in former times.

And as I have asked you MANY TIMES, if most of the decay products were here before your alleged state change, how do you explain the fact that they are in EXACTLY the right ratios to match millions of years of decay?

Apparently there is a lot of the daughter stuff, and was when we got in this state. If one were shallow enough to just look at the present state and it's decay, then one would imagine long ages for a lot of daughter stuff!
You only have two options here, dad. Either the amounts are the result of an unimaginable coincidence, or they are the result of millions of years of radioactive decay.
No. Another option is that the imaginary years imposed on large amounts of daughter material are totally meaningless.
 
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