Calvinism in the Anglican Communion

[FireDragon76]

. I would say behind that is a totalitarian will to power that says I can remake everything that exists just because I want to - since nothing has an essential nature I need to respect (including human nature) then people are little more than raw material to me.

I could say the same things about conservative Christians that reject homosexuality. I think you misunderstand the average gay Christian or those of us who are their allies. It's nothing so conspiratorial and really not about controlling other peoples lives.

Modern people have good reasons to reject essentialism, especially when the Church has made ridiculous claims about its ability to understand the essence of complex things like sexuality or gender- we prefer to leave that to scientists and empirical observation. Remember, Anglicans are protestant and don't accept the infallibility of the Church.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I could say the same things about conservative Christians that reject homosexuality.

I fail to see the connection. The church does not deny the reality of homosexuality. I think it's only a scant minority who argue that the orientation itself is a "choice". The decision to act upon it certainly is but I don't think the church has painted itself into an intellectual corner on this. It simply (and correctly) identifies the behavior as immoral. The best anybody has so far argued is "times change" and "our Lord ate with tax collectors", neither of which have any relevance to the argument.

I think you misunderstand the average gay Christian or those of us who are their allies. It's nothing so conspiratorial and really not about controlling other peoples lives.

Oh? The gay lobby can't even make a consistent argument about why "gay marriage" is such so imperative. One day it's about the legal benefits of marriage (several of which don't exist anymore now that we all live in Obamaville), the next day it's specifically about marriage as some form of blessed union and I'm sure tomorrow it'll be something else entirely.

The irony in all this is that "gay marriage" doesn't qualify as a "right".

Modern people have good reasons to reject essentialism, especially when the Church has made ridiculous claims about its ability to understand the essence of complex things like sexuality or gender

Such as?

 

[Albion]

I could say the same things about conservative Christians that reject homosexuality. I think you misunderstand the average gay Christian or those of us who are their allies.

To be fair, he was (I think) not speaking of "the average gay Christian or those of us who are their allies."

He was speaking of pressure groups, special interest activists, and government.

 

[ebia]

I agree with this. We are about to relocate and are basing our house search around an evangelical parish . This is ahead of work and children's schools. I would love to live in a rural village but I would be gutted to have a liberal or catholic village church. We are targeting city for that reason.

I'm not sure if that's what Merrily meant. Historically, one belonged to and attended whatever parish church one resided in - neither travelled nor relocated to shop for the "right" one.

Which is what I aim to do - hence being active in parishes ranging from FiF to Open Evangelical and shades in between.

Unforntunqty there are family reasons for not attending our current one, so we have to travel to an adjacent one at the moment. And when I'm on Nauru there isn't one for a couple of thousand km so if I manage to get anywhere at all it's the RCC or the Salvos.

 

[Liberasit]

I'm not sure if that's what Merrily meant. Historically, one belonged to and attended whatever parish church one resided in - neither travelled nor relocated to shop for the "right" one.

We are relocating for work, not for church.

 

[ebia]

We are relocating for work, not for church.

But you said you were choosing where to live according the church. That's not the historic expectation in a parish system.

 

[Liberasit]

But you said you were choosing where to live according the church. That's not the historic expectation in a parish system.

But I have a choice where to live and I will make that choice based on being within half a mile of a decent church.

I don't care what the historic expectation is, I fully intend to worship in the parish where we live.

You don't have to argue about everything here. Just pray for us that we will find a good church, house and school. A job for me would be good too.

 

[ebia]

But I have a choice where to live and I will make that choice based on being within half a mile of a decent church. I don't care what the historic expectation is, I fully intend to worship in the parish where we live. You don't have to argue about everything here. Just pray for us that we will find a good church, house and school. A job for me would be good too.

That's entirely up to you. My only point was that may not be what Merrily meany by "their parish church"

 

[Rurik]

That's not the historic expectation in a parish system.

The parish system is a historic leftover. The number of people attending churches based on personal connection rather then geographical is increasing in cites. What the church needs to do is work out how it can build on the networks of people within its communities while maintaining a local presence. But I digress.

 

[Albion]

The parish system is a historic leftover. The number of people attending churches based on personal connection rather then geographical is increasing in cites. What the church needs to do is work out how it can build on the networks of people within its communities while maintaining a local presence. But I digress.

In the USA, I doubt that there's a single Episcopal parish that is truly geography-based, unless there's no alternative. Pastors don't even talk as though there's a fiction that it still exists in this day and age when just keeping a membership is a top priority for most churches.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

I could say the same things about conservative Christians that reject homosexuality. I think you misunderstand the average gay Christian or those of us who are their allies. It's nothing so conspiratorial and really not about controlling other peoples lives.

Modern people have good reasons to reject essentialism, especially when the Church has made ridiculous claims about its ability to understand the essence of complex things like sexuality or gender- we prefer to leave that to scientists and empirical observation. Remember, Anglicans are protestant and don't accept the infallibility of the Church.

And why should progressives have any credibility? For the last 50 years, all we have heard is that marriage is outdated, a remnant of the past. Nothing any intelligent modern person should be interested in. We were told that we should be free of any commitments and do anything we want with whomever. Any sort of exclusive relationship was held to be oppressive. And so we were told, everyone knows that a marriage certificate is a meaningless piece of paper. That is all we have heard for years and years. But suddenly the same people who denigrated marriage for so long, now say that marriage is a great and essential thing for gay relationships? Oh really? The reality is, it was politically useful to destroy marriage, but since the left could not completely destroy the concept of marriage, the leftists are doing the next best thing and deconstructing marriage and re-creating it into something else that will be more politically useful.

 

[Liberasit]

In the USA, I doubt that there's a single Episcopal parish that is truly geography-based, unless there's no alternative. Pastors don't even talk as though there's a fiction that it still exists in this day and age when just keeping a membership is a top priority for most churches.

We are very pragmatic in the CofE.

To be on the electoral roll of a parish, you can either live within its boundaries (whether you come to church or not), or for it to be your habitual place of worship for six months.

Surely it is better for actual worshippers (and stewards) to have a say in the running of the church rather than tourists who simply roll up at the APCM.

 

[Yardstick]

Can we please be spared the gay marriage debate?

We are very pragmatic in the CofE.

To be on the electoral roll of a parish, you can either live within its boundaries (whether you come to church or not), or for it to be your habitual place of worship for six months.

Surely it is better for actual worshippers (and stewards) to have a say in the running of the church rather than tourists who simply roll up at the APCM.

As an American I must say the concept of church based on geography is completely foreign to me. I can't imagine people in my neighborhood having a say in how the church is run if they don't even participate in the life of the church!

But I suppose there is something to be said about knowing that there is a church dedicated to serving your area. Certainly would create the feeling of a past time when the Church was much more active in everyones daily life.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

Can we please be spared the gay marriage debate?

...

You're right, that was a little off topic...