The Big Bang (Hypothesis) vs. Creationism

[bhsmte]

Before we continue this, perhaps we should define "incomprehensible" just so we all know.what we're talking about. I looked up the definition on several sources, and there isn't much variation...so I'll give you this one from the free dictionary.

a. Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
b. Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mysteries.

If something is incomprehensible, that's really all we can know about it for sure. If you say god is incomprehensible, then anything else you claim about that god is suspect. After all, how can you know about god if he is incomprehensible? If you want someone to accept that notion, you're basically telling them that any further attempts to understand god are worthless...as are any further claims about him. The only question now is, how do you know? How can you know god is incomprehensible?

With many christians this is how it goes:

God is incomprehensible when trying to explain bad things that happen. When good things happen, God is easy to understand. This makes it easy to avoid explanation for the reality in the world.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Man, I love how you just confirmed my faith with that beautiful post..

You see prophets hold a different function in Biblical history, you could say they are chosen specifically to impart knowledge by the Spirit of God, which you receive upon profession of Christ.

Ive never heard it quite put like that as you did, but you are kinda right.. The Holy Spirit moves us, and in the case of the prophets, God is speaking through them, with them.

Interesting, you accidentally gave me discernment.. So for that thanks!


I used to be in your shoes, I argued against God my entire life..

There is a fundamental submission of ego that must take place before one comes to God..

What brought me to my knees was the understanding I was given.

Lest I end up like Nietzsche, crazy for the last years of my life from staring into the abyss to far lol..

I'm not quite sure if that was supposed to be an answer...you're saying we should believe him...because he says so? In that case I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...


However, it's interesting you'd bring up the point about the "submission of ego". I always thought it took a submission to understand that there is little difference between you and anyone else but your thoughts, memories, experiences, and what amounts to a tiny bit of genetics.

You have to give up the notion that you're some special loved creation of an all powerful universe creating being who wants a personal relationship with you, has a plan for your life, and loves you. Who wants your worship and in return for being good (aka doing as he asks) he'll give you life everlasting in a paradise just for you. It's amusing you'd call that a submission of ego...it seems to me in every way to be a complete indulgence of ego.

 

[Ana the Ist]

With many christians this is how it goes:

God is incomprehensible when trying to explain bad things that happen. When good things happen, God is easy to understand. This makes it easy to avoid explanation for the reality in the world.

So true...but not as amusing as the standard explanation of how prayer works.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

With many christians this is how it goes:

God is incomprehensible when trying to explain bad things that happen. When good things happen, God is easy to understand. This makes it easy to avoid explanation for the reality in the world.

Bad things happen because people do bad things.

We are sovereign in our choice to hurt others, or love others.

God does not view death as we do. We view dying as a scary ordeal in a fearful disposition, where as God, and those with faith in him, know that fear is only reserved for the Lord, who has the power to condemn you to the second death, or spiritual death.

When you die, you move on, in spirit.. Your soul is what allows your fleshy body to make a moral decision. Its connected to God, but its also connected to satanic influence, what you might understand as the ego.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Bad things happen because people do bad things.

We are sovereign in our choice to hurt others, or love others.

God does not view death as we do. We view dying as a scary ordeal in a fearful disposition, where as God, and those with faith in him, know that fear is only reserved for the Lord, who has the power to condemn you to the second death, or spiritual death.

When you die, you move on, in spirit.. Your soul is what allows your fleshy body to make a moral decision. Its connected to God, but its also connected to satanic influence, what you might understand as the ego.

If only it were that simple, yet when a baby is born with AIDS I'm hard pressed to believe it did something bad to cause that to happen.

You know...that and countless other examples .

 

[Kylie]

Well heres my thinking..

We have a slave class 3700 years ago.

They werent privy to commerce.
They werent practicing their faith openly.
They werent leaving any monuments or statues behind.
They didnt have a historical archive that they maintained.
And when they left Egypt, they took their most valuable belongings which I assume not to be much and left.

Historians still dont know what happened to the Egyptians and why they left so suddenly, you know this is true.

Im not saying its because of Moses, I dont question it to be honest.

The Jews have their history, I have mine..

But what we see in reality doesn't match up. There were about 2 million people involved in the exodus [source]. There is not single shred of evidence for their 40 year journey in the desert. No pottery, nothing.

Now, let's go with your date of approximately 1700 BC for the exodus. This can't be, because we have Egyptian records the come from that time which do not mention it. Other dates proposed are about 1446 BC, which is also impossible because there are (again) no Egyptian records of them losing their entire labour force. [source]

In fact, there's no good evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt at all.

And, finally, Egypt flourished until it was conquered by the Romans in 30BC, so you can't (as you seemed to be doing) suggest that we don't know what happened to the ancient Egyptians. [source]

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

If only it were that simple, yet when a baby is born with AIDS I'm hard pressed to believe it did something bad to cause that to happen.

You know...that and countless other examples .

A baby when its dead is received unto the Lord, and as I said, God doesnt view death the way you do.

If a Baby has aids, is that Gods fault? You want God to interfere with free will?

The human body is a vessel for this experience, nothing more, you can cling to it all you want.

I can promise you, you are going to lose your life one day.. How you handle that is up to you, but if you want to learn how to lose that fear, I can help.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

But what we see in reality doesn't match up. There were about 2 million people involved in the exodus [source]. There is not single shred of evidence for their 40 year journey in the desert. No pottery, nothing.

Now, let's go with your date of approximately 1700 BC for the exodus. This can't be, because we have Egyptian records the come from that time which do not mention it. Other dates proposed are about 1446 BC, which is also impossible because there are (again) no Egyptian records of them losing their entire labour force. [source]

In fact, there's no good evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt at all.

And, finally, Egypt flourished until it was conquered by the Romans in 30BC, so you can't (as you seemed to be doing) suggest that we don't know what happened to the ancient Egyptians. [source]

Except the Bible which has a perfect synchronicity with human history says the Jews, historically, not prophetically, were enslaved by the Egyptians..

You are just looking for any reason you can not to believe that..

You havent discovered anything on your own, you havent been to Egypt to search it and prove anything.

You honestly at the end of the day dont really have any objective proof they werent enslaved.


Further, there is never been one recorded instance in history of a race of people claiming to be slaves when it was really a lie, people just dont do that..


If you spoke with a Jew, perhaps they could bring you up to speed on their history as a people.


The Jews have been teaching this aspect of their history since it happened.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I'm not quite sure if that was supposed to be an answer...you're saying we should believe him...because he says so? In that case I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...


However, it's interesting you'd bring up the point about the "submission of ego". I always thought it took a submission to understand that there is little difference between you and anyone else but your thoughts, memories, experiences, and what amounts to a tiny bit of genetics.

You have to give up the notion that you're some special loved creation of an all powerful universe creating being who wants a personal relationship with you, has a plan for your life, and loves you. Who wants your worship and in return for being good (aka doing as he asks) he'll give you life everlasting in a paradise just for you. It's amusing you'd call that a submission of ego...it seems to me in every way to be a complete indulgence of ego.

Not for being "good" but following Gods objective morality.


You can tell me you think murder is bad, but without God you dont know why murder is bad, further, you cant give me an objective reason as to why, as not everyone will agree with you.

God is something we can objectively agree on..

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

There might not be any evidence of a slave class left in Egypt.

But what of Noahs ark?

We have strong evidence that it is in fact sitting where the Bible says it is..

The ark formation found has the exact dimensions of the Ark according to the Bible.

Here is a grid layout of the Iron fittings used on the ark, which were found to be 100% manmade.

One of the many iron rivet heads found at the site of the ark.

 

[quatona]

You can tell me you think murder is bad, but without God you dont know why murder is bad, further, you cant give me an objective reason as to why,

If there is an objective reason, it should be explainable and intelligible with or without a God.
Unless you actually don´t mean to say "reason" but to make an appeal to power.

as not everyone will agree with you.

Quite obviously not everyone agrees - and quite apparently the existence of a God - in which you believe - doesn´t solve the problem.

God is something we can objectively agree on..

Well, adopting your line of reasoning: "Since not everyone will agree with you" that a God exists and, if so, what his opinions are, you have taken the problem just one level higher.

 

[pchilde3]

Lol if god is more than we can comprehend...then how could we possibly know anything else about god? You just said he's incomprehensible...so anything else you can possibly claim about him we shouldn't believe, because he's incomprehensible.

-For God to be knowable to us, means that we can be aware of him through inquiry, observation and information, as well as have a relationship with him. Additionally, to say that God is incomprehensible means that he is so great and perfect, that we, as his creation, cannot fully fathom or understand his majesty. These two facts about God while perhaps sounding like they are regarding the same thing, in fact are not at all. The ability to know him does not necessitate that we be able to know everything about him to it’s maximum ability. In scripture, we are told many things about God that make him knowable to us. Some of these tell us that he is love (1 John 4:8), light (1 John 1:5), spirit (John 4:24), and righteous (Rom 3:26). As we study God’s word and see what it reveals to us about God, we will most likely come to the point where we begin to realize that God is so great that we cannot fully comprehend or understand him.

-Psalm 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite."

 

[pchilde3]

I find that to be quite disingenuous, seeing as you do not accept the science in question. Besides, science does not equal atheism.

I don't see how an anti-science approach is going to endear you to non-believers.

-I accept the Big Bang. But with my approach, I think the Big Bang reinforces Christianity. We can learn so much about the beginning of the universe up till "before". Then to bridge that gap from what we know to what we don't know about the Big Bang comes Christianity.

 

[pchilde3]

Can you describe, in a nutshell, what you believe the big bang theory describes?

It is my understanding that preaching is entirely inappropriate the discussion and debate forums, of which this is one. There are other forums on this site that are more appropriate for that kind of behaviour.

-The Big Bang attempts to describe the formation of our universe. The expansion that took millions of years to form the galaxies and planets.

-You call it preaching, but it isn't necessarily preaching. I am using the Bible as a reference to your questions. Which is completely acceptable in any debate on creation.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

If there is an objective reason, it should be explainable and intelligible with or without a God.
Unless you actually don´t mean to say "reason" but to make an appeal to power.


Quite obviously not everyone agrees - and quite apparently the existence of a God - in which you believe - doesn´t solve the problem.


Well, adopting your line of reasoning: "Since not everyone will agree with you" that a God exists and, if so, what his opinions are, you have taken the problem just one level higher.

No no no, Im saying that God is something we CAN objectively agree on because he presents an objective answer. For everything.

Something science will never, nor was it ever, meant to do..

Dont go off on a tangent about how I disregard science either, science is great, but it will never be able to answer questions about morality, nor was meant to.

Atheists should be philosophers..


Like I said your entire argument against God is borrowed, because I was saying all the same crap once upon a time..

I only had my life changed about 9 months ago by accepting Christ, so I know what you are thinking but you havent submitted to Christ to know what I am talking about..

 

[quatona]

No no no, Im saying that God is something we CAN objectively agree on because he presents an objective answer. For everything.

Presupposing a God exists, of course.
Likewise, we could simply presuppose that an objective morality exist, and wouldn´t need a God for that presupposition.

The opinion/answer of an entity is not exactly what "objective" refers to. If it´s objective it is so with or without someone saying so.

Like I said your entire argument against God is borrowed, because I was saying all the same crap once upon a time..

Well, since I haven´t even made an argument against God here I am not sure you aren´t confusing me with someone else.

I only had my life changed about 9 months ago by accepting Christ, so I know what you are thinking

Doesn´t follow, but it surely explains why you don´t address the arguments I am making but rather the arguments you feel everyone who doesn´t believe in your God should have.

but you havent submitted to Christ to know what I am talking about..

You have presented what appeared to be meant as a logical argument. This logic should be independent of what you or anyone has "submitted to" or not, or else you are just appealing to your own authority.

 

[bhsmte]

Bad things happen because people do bad things.

We are sovereign in our choice to hurt others, or love others.

God does not view death as we do. We view dying as a scary ordeal in a fearful disposition, where as God, and those with faith in him, know that fear is only reserved for the Lord, who has the power to condemn you to the second death, or spiritual death.

When you die, you move on, in spirit.. Your soul is what allows your fleshy body to make a moral decision. Its connected to God, but its also connected to satanic influence, what you might understand as the ego.

Are you saying there is a relationship between bad things happening to people who do bad things?

 

[bhsmte]

A baby when its dead is received unto the Lord, and as I said, God doesnt view death the way you do.

If a Baby has aids, is that Gods fault? You want God to interfere with free will?

The human body is a vessel for this experience, nothing more, you can cling to it all you want.

I can promise you, you are going to lose your life one day.. How you handle that is up to you, but if you want to learn how to lose that fear, I can help.

If bad things happen because people do bad things (as you claim), then God must be inserting himself somewhere to cause the bad things, correct? Sounds like interference with free will to me.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Are you saying there is a relationship between bad things happening to people who do bad things?

No, as Christians we expect bad things to happen to good people.. Because there are evil people in this world, those who dont have the light of truth in them. We pray against the bad things, but what you view bad in one light may not be viewed as bad in another.

For example, Christians dont fear death, and will happily give their lives just on faith alone.

Those without Christ fear death, but realize that confronting their sins isnt worth coming to God over, they might lose something this world has to offer in the form of pleasure, which was never what we were supposed to do.

The bible teaches that satan is the god of this world, when you appeal to him, he will help you as well..

God doesnt interfere with our happenings, this makes us robots, not sovereign minded beings.

He only provides us with insight into the inner workings of our human nature and how to thrive as we were intended to.

Instead, the world financial system is about to collapse, 50 million children in the US have been aborted, and homosexuality is now legal.

God has punished every nation in history for doing this, its coming to us as well..


We just want to see everyone prepared for the coming storm.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

If bad things happen because people do bad things (as you claim), then God must be inserting himself somewhere to cause the bad things, correct? Sounds like interference with free will to me.

How does God give a person free will, they then go on to kill someone, and God gets the blame?

God doesnt regard human death, he knows your spirit directly, he knows when your body dies, you are coming to him..

You know that you are afraid to die, but are ignorant in what awaits..

If you deny God, then when the time comes, Christ will deny you, and you will be judged.

We all had fair warning.. We thought we could erase duality and "do as thou wilt" but that is not how it goes..