The Evolution of Morality

[bhsmte]

There is no real evidence. It is assumptions based on a certain presupposition.

Question wasn't for you.

 

[HitchSlap]

Which is why I'm asking what your profession is in Science. What is your scientific background? What fields have you worked in? Every single time I mention something you seem to come back with the exact same questions...
Quote the source, quote the author etc etc. You do this with virtually every single question which makes me seriously doubt you have any background in science at all, yet you seem to fully support it? This is very odd indeed. How can you possibly support something so much that you have no knowledge of?

You have a tendency to make false assertions. Most of us here know they're false, which is why we ask you to source your claims, because we know you can't, which in turn lets you know, that we know, that you don't know.

Got it?

 

[lasthero]

Speaking of memory, do we actually know how it works then? I was under the impression it was still a mystery? How much memory capacity do we have? and when someone survives an incident involving half their brain being destroyed, how is it they retain all their memories?

Have you bothered to look it up, or do you just assume it's juju?

 

[lasthero]

Just so I know, what is your profession in Science?

And the relevance of this question is...?

 

[HitchSlap]

And the relevance of this question is...?

I think it's his idea of being clever?

 

[lasthero]

So it seems.

Anyway, nutty, here's a link about memory.

THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM

There's a lot more, but this can help you get started. See what you can find when you actually bother to look for answers?

By the way, I recall that there was an experiment done recently that actually succeeded in giving a mouse a false memory. Will have to look it up later. At any rate, while there's still much to learn, it's not a complete mystery.

 

[Ginger123]

Had your parents been Muslims do you agree that you could well be a Muslim now?
I do hope you are not going to tell us that your parents had nothing to do with you being a creationist.

My parents were not religious. Religion was never brought up in our home at all. My brother is an atheist of the strongest sort. I mean I really don't even know what my dad believed about religion due to the conversation never being brought up. My mother became a believer about ten years ago.

I gave you an out and [as I expected] you took it, so I will ask again.
Had your parents been Muslims do you agree that you could well be a Muslim now.

PS, I have never come across a creationist who's parents were not either Atheists or not very religious, have you?

 

[biggles53]

I would not find reality consistent with my beliefs.

But that's just it....in the discussions I've had with you concerning the evolution of morality, for example, reality is NOT consistent with your beliefs, as you have expressed them.

On more than one occasion, you have expressed doubt or puzzlement over why your god would have acted in the bloodthirsty way that it supposedly has. You have put those doubts to one side with a catch-all justification of 'I trust he knows what he's doing and why he's doing it..'

That's a disjunct between belief and reality.....

 

[nuttypiglet]

So it seems.

Anyway, nutty, here's a link about memory.

THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM

There's a lot more, but this can help you get started. See what you can find when you actually bother to look for answers?

By the way, I recall that there was an experiment done recently that actually succeeded in giving a mouse a false memory. Will have to look it up later. At any rate, while there's still much to learn, it's not a complete mystery.

I know those kind of basics, but the in depth method of storing memory is pretty much mysterious. Let me put it another way. I probably have sections of hundreds of movies in my memory which I have watched over the years. Probably many hundreds of songs including instruments. So having to store images or audio must be very complex.

 

[biggles53]

I know those kind of basics, but the in depth method of storing memory is pretty much mysterious. Let me put it another way. I probably have sections of hundreds of movies in my memory which I have watched over the years. Probably many hundreds of songs including instruments. So having to store images or audio must be very complex.

Why must "complex" = "mysterious"....?

 

[Davian]

Why must "complex" = "mysterious"....?

Complexity can be worked out. Mysteries often go unsolved - a gap in our knowledge. Along comes the god-of-the-gaps argument.....

 

[nuttypiglet]

Why must "complex" = "mysterious"....?

I have no idea? who said it does?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Clarify then. Do you accept the overwhelming scientific evidence that states the age of the universe and earth?

I can accept that the current age for he universe is accurate. I have questions about the age of the earth due to the absence of evidence of the earliest earth's surface.

 

[biggles53]

I have no idea? who said it does?

Errr.......you do...

Originally Posted by nuttypiglet
I know those kind of basics, but the in depth method of storing memory is pretty much mysterious. Let me put it another way. I probably have sections of hundreds of movies in my memory which I have watched over the years. Probably many hundreds of songs including instruments. So having to store images or audio must be very complex.

 

[lasthero]

I probably have sections of hundreds of movies in my memory which I have watched over the years. Probably many hundreds of songs including instruments. So having to store images or audio must be very complex.

Okay. So? Memory is still a pretty well-understood thing.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Errr.......you do...

So I could ask you, based on your silly logic and lack of English, "why does Err=you do"

 

[nuttypiglet]

Okay. So? Memory is still a pretty well-understood thing.

Obviously you are not impressed with the complexity, from your tone it is obvious you think it is a pretty simple and understood thing. So explain then, how does consciousness link to memory? we obviously have to think of the item we want to remember, and then retrieve anything we have stored. Is our conscious mind actually hovering or existing in the memory vaults all the time? There must also be some type of index system, or we couldn't retrieve memories as quickly. A sequential method would take years. So what are the indexes and how are they linked to the rest of the relevant stored information?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Wow, this is a fast moving thread! For reference, I'm replying to Once's post #428.

Once wrote:

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Yes, there is a mix of old and new stuff. The old stuff is still relevant if it hasn't been found wrong by newer work. At any rate, this gives you a lot to look into if you are interested in understanding how morality can result from an evolutionary process, in addition to the descriptions from the book which I wrote out, and of course newer work, like that in the several journals on this topic.

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OK, that sounds like we agree that the evolution of intelligence and of hierarchy are agreed to be feasible.

Only in the fact that God ingrained the intelligence within the living forms. There is nothing in evolution that would create mindfulness from mindlessness. Just doesn't work. Hierarchy had to begin with some intelligence to evolve from.

What? Are you for real? Memory is not an evolutionary mystery. The physical and chemical way memories are formed, retained, and recalled is well understood in detail, and is based on the binding of magnesium ions on neural synapses. I don't have a biology degree and I even know that. It's described in more detail in basic biology courses like this one: Biology: The Science of Life

The first kiss, the smell of mother's cooking or the vision of a beautiful landscape; memories such as these are etched firmly into our brains for recall in vivid detail, even decades later. Memories and experience influence our decisions throughout life, both consciously and subconsciously—in a sense, our memories make us what we are. Yet, understanding how information is encoded in our brains and how memories are maintained, both at the conceptual and molecular levels, remains one of the greatest challenges in the life sciences. Through decades of research, biologists have answered many fundamental questions about the brain, and more recent work has revealed the identity of several crucial molecules involved in the storage and retrieval of information. This has at last begun to shed light on the major scientific puzzle: how do we form and maintain long-term memories?

Ancient rules of memory. The molecules and mechanisms of memory evolved long before their ‘modern' use in the brain

The evolution of memory is also well understood, with the changes to the neurons over time and the intermediates forms described.

If you want to understand the complicated and wondrous history that gave us memory, then you could get a degree in neurological evolution. It'll take that to learn the many details and how we know them.

Indeed, I would also learn what we don't know. Granted we know a great deal and learn more all the time. However, it is not as complete and said and done as you would like lead me to believe. Are you a neurologist?

It again sounds like you are making false assertions from a position of ignorance.

Do you have a degree in neurology?

It's also worth mentioning that the evolution of nervous systems is also well understood, with plenty of intermediates.

What intermediates. I don't want your copy and paste usual response. What intermediates are there?

You mentioned that basic nervous systems appeared "fully functional" - but that's a pointless statement, because any animal will be "fully functional" to survive, since if it isn't, then it's extinct. Nervous systems developed from very simple to very complex. For instance, early nervous systems were simply scattered cells that were able to activate each other, forming a net of nerves. That's a far cry from the parallel systems of sensory and motor nerves we have, with a layered and hierarchical structure.

Bring on the intermediates.


Why would you think that's after the fact? It's the same situation millions of animals are in, in the wild today. It's shows how morality evolved.

Fairness Experiment: Moral behaviour in Monkeys - YouTube​

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There is a ton of reasearch here. Check out other videos if this one isn't clear. For instance, a monkey given a desired prize will throw it back if a neighbor monkey gets a bigger prize for the same action.

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What does that say about fairness or morality?

Why would you think that this is being interpreted in a non-objective way? After all, this work is being done by people with all kinds of different motivations and worldviews - some Christians, some Muslims, some Atheists, and so on. How could they possibly be all trying to support these disparate worldviews, yet agreeing on the data?

They all have the same goal? The video was said to show that the monkey was upset due to the unfairness of the reward. However, that is a subjective conclusion. It is in fact subjective in all cases due to the monkey's motive or intent.

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Why not?


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OK, so consider an egg cell with a sperm cell next to it. It it intelligent?

According to the study, yes.

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OK, good. So we agree that intelligence confers an advantage, and hence would experience positive selection pressure by natural selection.

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Oh, I agree that, aside from any evidence about what actually happened, that God could well have ingrained something into life forms that gave rise to intelligence. In fact, in that way I agree that God could have poofed intelligence into being at any time, or at multiple times. Or that God could have poofed all life into existence instantaneously, or that He could have poofed Mt. Vesuvius into existence instantaneously, or that He could have poofed you and I into existence instantaneously last Thursday.

Why would He necessarily need to poof into existence?

I'm simply looking at the evidence and seeing HOW God likely actually did the creating - since He could have created it in by using any of literally millions of methods.

I think we agree that God did the creating, and that God is vast and powerful enough to have used any of millions of methods, right?

We agree that God did the creating, He is powerful enough to do anything He wishes. We are just looking at that differently.​

 

[lasthero]

Obviously you are not impressed with the complexity

Obviously no such thing. The brain is an amazing thing, I wouldn't deny that.

Is our conscious mind actually hovering or existing in the memory vaults all the time?

Not sure. But I know where to look for those answers.

Building Memories: Remembering and Forgetting of Verbal Experiences as Predicted by Brain Activity

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2000-00111-015

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-03417-001

For starters. It's an interesting topic, to be sure, and I'll freely concede there are many things about the brain and memory that aren't completely understood...but that doesn't mean we need to invoke mystical memory juju.

 

[lasthero]

Obviously you are not impressed with the complexity

Obviously no such thing. The brain is an amazing thing, I wouldn't deny that.

Is our conscious mind actually hovering or existing in the memory vaults all the time?

Not sure. But I know where to look for those answers.

Building Memories: Remembering and Forgetting of Verbal Experiences as Predicted by Brain Activity

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2000-00111-015

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-03417-001

For starters. It's an interesting topic, to be sure, and I'll freely concede there are many things about the brain and memory that aren't completely understood...but that doesn't mean we need to invoke mystical memory juju.