What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

[guuila]

This is a prophetic scripture that Peter considered to be fulfilled in his day.

Okay.

Can someone who never met with an Israelite (in OT times) call on the name of the Lord?

Everyone whom the Lord calls can and will call on the name of the Lord.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If the Reformed position is for tautology so be it. I will stick with a standard literary analysis approach, which accepts that authors chose and use words carefully and with specific meaning and intent,

John
NZ

Yes we don't care about those kind of things.

Whether you agree with the outcome or not, I think it is very clear that the Reformed view of redemptive history is much more streamlined in terms of God's eternal purpose, because His purpose in coming to earth, taking on flesh, giving His life as a ransom for sinners and resurrecting Himself from the dead is shown to be very specific and intentional towards those whom are "His" which is quite consistent and admirable. In non-Reformed views of the atonement, typically the aim is for salvation of the general man, with no one in particular in mind but the entire human race, although many will not be saved and therefore the atonement does not actually save many [or any] for whom it was made, thus showing inconsistency.

 

[janxharris]

Okay.



Everyone whom the Lord calls can and will call on the name of the Lord.

The king called everyone to his sons wedding banquet. Matthew 22.

 

[guuila]

The king called everyone to his sons wedding banquet. Matthew 22.

So you're a universalist? That would've been good to know.

 

[janxharris]

So you're a universalist? That would've been good to know.

You have asked me this question many times. I refer you to my previous answer.

 

[Hammster]

When all else fails, go to Matt 22. Don't even worry about the context.

 

[guuila]

You have asked me this question many times. I refer you to my previous answer.

You say that God calls everyone, but Paul says "...those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:30 ESV)

So if God calls everyone, and those who are called are justified, is it not logical to conclude everyone is justified, thus you're a universalist? Or does Scripture contradict itself? Or are you just inconsistent??

?????????????????????????????????????

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

2 Corinthians 5:
14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​

Paul says that one died for all which repeats what he has said elsewhere and is a confirmation of the Arminian position. How you think that verse 19 explicitly defines 'world' as 'elect' I have no idea.

So if "world" in v19 is every single man, woman and child with no qualification, who is the "us" and "we" in v21?

And if it be every single man, woman and child with no qualification, then what about what most commentators make of where it was derived from?

Gal. 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.”

 

[Jack Terrence]

Paul says that one died for all which repeats what he has said elsewhere and is a confirmation of the Arminian position. How you think that verse 19 explicitly defines 'world' as 'elect' I have no idea.
​

No sir! Paul said that if Christ died for all then ALL DIED, that is, all died with Him. Did every individual die with Christ? Answer: No!

The "all" are His people.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Paul never put the gospel in that way. On the contrary, Paul said:

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
​

Those aren't contrary formulations.

The fact that God is objectively good, including his works, does make the gospel good news for those you falsely say God determined to eternally damn.

The fact that God is objectively good does not make the Gospel of any use for those who will not believe under either system.

False. Knowing that someone will not believe is entirely different to foreordaining that someone will not believe. Perhaps you have changed your mind on Calvin's view on election/reprobation?

I'm going to take this as confirmation that you're conflating Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement. Until you stop doing this, we can't have a meaningful discussion on either point.

You theology isn't good news Epiphoskei. Let's not forget that Judas was given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven and sent out as a sheep amongst wolves to proclaim that the kingdom of heaven was near. He was also sent to heal the sick, raise the dead and drive out demons. Some Christians today would feel very much encouraged if they had such a record. But we know what happened to Judas.

I can only imagine what this means.

I'm not an open theist.

I didn't expect so. It was merely one of three options.

The difference is stark. Your theology does not accept that any man, without exception, has the wherewithall necessary to believe in Christ. You promote the view that God compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man.

Another confirmation that the answer lies in option three.

I do not see this makes any difference.

So now that we actually get to option three, you have nothing to say in your defense.

 

[Jack Terrence]

So not the Jewish leadership, but everyone else?

I did not say that. This annoys me because I have said over and over again that Paul preached that the remission of sins and the promises are for the children of the patriarchs. It was THEM whom the apostles called to salvation. Not all men are the children of the patriarchs.

But the recent premise has been set forth that Paul preached that the resurrection of Christ was for the Jewish leadership. I have been addressing this specifically.

I don't know why you are so focused on the Jewish leadership.

I am focused on the Jewish leadership because it has been recently proposed that Paul preached that Christ's resurrection was for them. This is patently false.

In any case, it was JEWS who did not consider themselves worthy of eternal life.

I have discussed this before and will not repeat myself. Regardless, Paul told them that he would have nothing more to do with them. So how can you say that Paul preached that Christ's resurrection was for them after that? You offered his preaching in the synagogue after that as proof that Christ's resurrection is for all men. How can this be true if Paul had just determined that he would have nothing more to do with some men?

 

[Jack Terrence]

False. Knowing that someone will not believe is entirely different to foreordaining that someone will not believe. Perhaps you have changed your mind on Calvin's view on election/reprobation?

If God foreknows that they will not believe in the sense that you define foreknowledge, then why would He offer them the Gospel at all? The only reason I can think of is to increase the severity of their sin.

 

[guuila]

If God foreknows that they will not believe in the sense that you define foreknowledge, then why would He offer them the Gospel at all? The only reason I can think of is to increse the severity of their sin.

This is why limited atonement isn't incompatible with Arminianism. But for some reason they prefer that Christ died for reprobates in hell, even to the point that Christ came into the world and died for people the Father already condemned long before Christ was ever born.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If God foreknows that they will not believe in the sense that you define foreknowledge, then why would He offer them the Gospel at all? The only reason I can think of is to increase the severity of their sin.

Well the only reason He would foreknow their choosing would be if He foreknew to offer it to them by which they could choose. Which means somehow God would have to calculate a man's freewill choice to accept or deny the Gospel based on circumstances. How else could He know? Further, how could men, at a point in time having no ontological existence, make a freewill choice for God to know? The choice would somehow have to be eternally existing.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Unless you can provide us with a clear statement from Paul that the gospel he preached to believers was under no circumstances to be preached to unbelievers without modification, then you have no case.

1) Why? You want clear statements from Paul to the effect of Calvinism but provide nothing of the sort for Arminianism. You assume Paul and his audience are Arminians working from the same set of givens that you work from, but assuming they hold to a biblical concept of what atonement is, they're not going to be confused about who atonement is for if Paul says it's for them.

2) There are hundreds of clear statements in scripture about the efficacy of atonement.

Here are thirteen instances of atonement being the forgiveness or cleansing of sin.
Lev 4:20

So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.

Lev 4:26

Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 4:31

Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 4:35

Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 5:10

So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

Lev 5:13

So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has committed from one of these, and it will be forgiven him

Lev 5:16

The priest shall then make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and it will be forgiven him.

Lev 5:18

So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.

Lev 6:7

and the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt.

Lev 10:7

He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord.

Lev 14:20

The priest shall offer up the burnt offering and the grain offering on the altar. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be clean.

Lev 19:22

The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him.

Num 15:28

The priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven.

Here's one where Aaron has to rush to the Altar to atone quickly in order to stop God's wrath.
Num 16:46

Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put in it fire from the altar, and lay incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone forth from the Lord, the plague has begun!”

Here sins are placed on the scapegoat's head, and when he is driven off into the wilderness, he takes their iniquity away with them.
Lev 16:20-22

When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.

And, of course, Isaiah 53.

But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

Which of the following things can one say of one who will not be saved? Is he forgiven? Clean? Has God's wrath towards him ceased? Did Christ make an end of all his sin? Is he healed? Did his iniquity fall on Christ?

God cannot demand payment twice. If Christ, in dying, made an end of your sin and carried your iniquity and cleanses you so that the Father turns his wrath away from you and forgives you, God is not so unjust as to send you to hell. You are as innocent as the Son of God.

 

[harrisrose77]

Well the only reason He would foreknow their choosing would be if He foreknew to offer it to them by which they could choose. Which means somehow God would have to calculate a man's freewill choice to accept or deny the Gospel based on circumstances. How else could He know? Further, how could men, at a point in time having no ontological existence, make a freewill choice for God to know? The choice would somehow have to be eternally existing.

Far be it that God should not do right.

GENESIS 18:25. "Far be it from you to do such a thing...to kill the righteous with the wicked, (already judged), alike. Far be it from you! Would not the God of 'ALL' the earth do right?"

First of all, God is righteous, no one should deny...Those in belief through the faith of Abraham in the OT, are saved into Abraham's bosom, (Sheol), Matthew 8:11; "I tell you, many WILL come from East and West, and WILL sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven." This was simply a place of rest, where the believing Patriarchs went to rest with Abraham, the Father of the True Faith. Any who were considered 'Wicked', (without the same Faith), were considered the children of the Devil. God foreknew them. The fact that God also foreknew their judgement was 'Set', doesn't mean His mercy was any less real. God has shown 'ALL' men the way through Christ, by His 'Finished' works on the Cross, that is available to all. But those who believe, are to keep check on themselves, by working out their Salvation, with fear (reverential),and trembling. let alone try to determine who is not saved. The beauty of having the Holy Spirit dwell within us, is a responsibility, and blessing beyond true comprehension, because we are the Light and salt in which to witness to all, and if each of us helps Christ to save one soul, then we have all done a good work of God, and our life has not been in vain.

 

[Jack Terrence]

God has shown 'ALL' men the way through Christ, by His 'Finished' works on the Cross, that is available to all.

The cross is NOT available to all. It is available only to those who believe.

 

[harrisrose77]

The cross is NOT available to all. It is available only to those who believe.

Indeed, sorry [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I forgot to split the hairs. I'm sure the less contentious, would know what I meant.

 

[guuila]

God has shown 'ALL' men the way through Christ, by His 'Finished' works on the Cross, that is available to all.

And here we were sending out more missionaries from our church... guess we outta call 'em home!

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Far be it that God should not do right.

GENESIS 18:25. "Far be it from you to do such a thing...to kill the righteous with the wicked, (already judged), alike. Far be it from you! Would not the God of 'ALL' the earth do right?"

First of all, God is righteous, no one should deny...Those in belief through the faith of Abraham in the OT, are saved into Abraham's bosom, (Sheol), Matthew 8:11; "I tell you, many WILL come from East and West, and WILL sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven." This was simply a place of rest, where the believing Patriarchs went to rest with Abraham, the Father of the True Faith. Any who were considered 'Wicked', (without the same Faith), were considered the children of the Devil. God foreknew them. The fact that God also foreknew their judgement was 'Set', doesn't mean His mercy was any less real. God has shown 'ALL' men the way through Christ, by His 'Finished' works on the Cross, that is available to all. But those who believe, are to keep check on themselves, by working out their Salvation, with fear (reverential),and trembling. let alone try to determine who is not saved. The beauty of having the Holy Spirit dwell within us, is a responsibility, and blessing beyond true comprehension, because we are the Light and salt in which to witness to all, and if each of us helps Christ to save one soul, then we have all done a good work of God, and our life has not been in vain.

What did this have to do with my post that you were supposedly "responding" to? This doesn't address anything that I said.