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What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

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Charis kai Dunamis

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This may be applicable, since it is from Paul to the Corinthians regarding the atonement:

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Is the "our" here universal amongst all people? Can all people claim this verse for themselves regardless of being in Christ?
 
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janxharris

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Starting from the beginning,

Christ's death is indeed the sine qua non of salvation, but you could also just as easily leave "the sine qua non of" out of the equation. Christ's death is salvation, and I assert that Christ did not save all, nor did he do anything in his death other than save.

As to how what you wrote was a rebuttal to my invocation of justice, I have no idea.

Concerning the second part, the reprobate and the elect are both sinners, murderers and idolaters, thieves, liars, haters of all that is good and of righteousness and of God himself. This fact in and of itself is sufficient to make their damnation just regardless of anything else.

Now let's assume that God takes some of the people who deserve to die and pardons them. What you would have me believe is that now, as far as the other part are concerned, all of their sin doesn't matter anymore. You expunge them of all their guilt and reduce the justice of their damnation and their responsibility for their damnation to whether or not they have an equal shot at not being damned.

I suppose, in a sense, they had a shot at not being damned - they could have just been innocent all their lives. They didn't. No man ever has. No man ever could (save Christ) within orthodox Christian doctrine. And within orthodox Christian doctrine no man is with excuse. As such, with every man being born into the world a justly damned sinner, to say that any man has ever received an unfair shake is to accuse God of being an unrighteous judge.

Hence, if damnation be justice mercy may choose its own object.

Thank you for your response, but it just proves that Calvinism cannot explain the injustice of God that springs from its own doctrines. I have no idea how you rationalize this.
 
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janxharris

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Okay. So how were the Amorites to be saved?
Through faith.

Does your theology not have any room for God to be pleased with his own work? Did God not say "Let there be light" and then observe that it was good? Do you think its goodness came about by any means other than God himself?

You cannot compare God's pleasure when we put our faith in Him with God's pleasure in creation. A genuine response of trust is pleasing but one that is programmed cannot be so. Do you not think God has the wherewithall to create humans with genuine libertarian free will? Isn't that a judgement on God's intelligence?

An admission is still an action you do. If it's not the work of God, its your own contribution to salvation. There's no way around it.

Scripture disagrees with you. Isn't it about time that you dealt with Romans 9:30-32?

Nobody ever said "God believes for us." This is typical straw man argumentation from synergists. God's grace is the causal agent behind our faith. There is a difference. But for some reason you'd rather YOU be the causal agent behind your faith, not God's grace. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

You make it sound so optional. Is it? If it isn't then you are edging towards Arminianism.
Scripture does assert that we put our faith in God. It is all over the good book.
 
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janxharris

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Faith is an option for the reprobate. It's an option they don't want to take.

You say faith is an option for the reprobate, but is this a genuine 'offer' to the reprobate? No, it is not, for the believing reprobate does not have a Jesus who died for them.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
 
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janxharris

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You aren't really explaining what you believe. You say: "Christ died for all men [without exception] and all their sins". In what sense are you saying "for"?

As in the hospital analogy - all you need for eternal life is made available. You just have to trust Christ and you are let in.

You then bring up a theoretical situation, similar to the typical debt/check scenario where the debt is all paid for by Christ, you just have to grab the check and take it to the bank. I understand this to mean that you believe only that Christ's death is sufficient to atone and has the potential to atone, but does not actually atone until one believes, just as He has not technically accomplished the paying off of debt in the check/debt scheme since He never takes it to the bank and actually pays it off. Therefore, in your scheme, Jesus as the Great High Priest does not present His atonement on one's behalf until they profess Him as Savior. This actually means that Christ only accomplished the potential to atone for sin on the cross, which actually says that Christ technically didn't die for anyone. He died as a sacrifice for sin [in general], made His atonement available to all which must be partaken of by faith; then [and only then] is any actual atonement made for sin, which means that in the end, you technically hold to a lesser form of limited atonement, since Jesus only actually makes atonement for the elect.

You make valid points, but you do so from the human perspective. If we move into God's realm, then there is no order - it all occurs eternally at once - Christ's atonement for all and our faith / refusal. The atonement for all can be said to exist, but it exists at the same moment as it is limited.

Feel free to correct anywhere I may have misrepresented you, as I wish to interact with what you have presented accurately and fairly.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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You make valid points, but you do so from the human perspective. If we move into God's realm, then there is no order - it all occurs eternally at once - Christ's atonement for all and our faith / refusal. The atonement for all can be said to exist, but it exists at the same moment as it is limited.

Our faith/refusal is eternal? :confused:
 
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OzSpen

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Concerning the second part, the reprobate and the elect are both sinners, murderers and idolaters, thieves, liars, haters of all that is good and of righteousness and of God himself. This fact in and of itself is sufficient to make their damnation just regardless of anything else.
In my understanding of God's justice, that redefines the meaning of justice. Since all people (reprobate and elect) are sinners and if God chooses only to save some and send the rest to damnation as a deterministic action, I do not find that that lines up with my understanding of the justice of God?
 
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OzSpen

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You say faith is an option for the reprobate, but is this a genuine 'offer' to the reprobate? No, it is not, for the believing reprobate does not have a Jesus who died for them.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
:thumbsup:
 
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Skala

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Thank you for your response, but it just proves that Calvinism cannot explain the injustice of God that springs from its own doctrines. I have no idea how you rationalize this.

It's only an injustice because you say it is, not because it actually is.

In Calvinism, God doesn't withhold anything from anyone that is owed them.
Nor does he give punishment to those who do not deserve it.

You can't prove that Calvinism teaches either of the above two things, therefore, you are wrong in constantly asserting that Calvinism contains injustices.
 
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Jack Terrence

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In my understanding of God's justice, that redefines the meaning of justice. Since all people (reprobate and elect) are sinners and if God chooses only to save some and send the rest to damnation as a deterministic action, I do not find that that lines up with my understanding of the justice of God?
Words in red are the crux of the matter. Fortunately, God is not bound by your understanding of justice. It is not an injustice to withhold something that is not owed.
 
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Hammster

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In my understanding of God's justice, that redefines the meaning of justice. Since all people (reprobate and elect) are sinners and if God chooses only to save some and send the rest to damnation as a deterministic action, I do not find that that lines up with my understanding of the justice of God?

Justice is served when sin is paid for. It's either paid for by the sinner, or by Christ.
 
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janxharris

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If Paul preached to a body of unbelievers an evangelistic message concerning Christ's definite redemption of a people taken out of all nations, when Paul later speaks to the portion of that body who are that people, it is entirely correct for him to say that Christ died for them.

Except that Paul specifies that 'this is what we preach', and 'this' is defined in veres 3 and 4.

Question: If Paul believed in limited atonement then he would be as concerned as you are that the words, 'Christ died for our sins', were not preached to unbelievers. Why doesn't Paul guard against this?

An unbelieving and unmentioned third party who might have been present during this message but to whom Paul is not speaking is not viable as an antecedent in this verse.

Unmentioned?
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

He addresses them directly. We know that Paul had some misgivings about the the Corinthian church (sexual immorality, denial of the resurrection of the dead and irreverence of the Lord's Supper), so his recapitulation of the gospel is consistent with such concerns.

To sum up what you haven't proved in this thread thus far:

1)You haven't proven "Christ died for our sins" is a direct quote of what Paul spoke originally.

It is the gospel that 'we preach...what you believed'. You are suggesting that he modifies the gospel if unbelievers are present?

2)If "Christ died for our sins" was a direct quote, you haven't proven that Paul was speaking inclusively of the audience at the time. The context of the rest of the sermon would be necessary to determine this, and it wasn't recorded. Had Paul said "we" several times beforehand in sentences wherein he lumped himself together with the Corinthians, that would suggest inclusivity. Had he said anything along the lines of "I am an apostle sent from God and from the Church as an emissary unto you that you might believe and enter into the rest of the church with us," that single use of exclusive "us" casts doubt on your entire thesis.

As I have said, if Paul had wanted to guard against preaching 'Christ died for our sins' to unbelievers, then why didn't he?

3)If the phrase is an indirect quote, you haven't proven that the antecedent extends beyond Paul and the Corinthian Church. Indeed, it cannot be the case that Paul intended to signify anything more than the inclusion of himself and the Corinthians. Pronouns which are explicitly inclusive of the second and third person do not exist. In any language. It is believed the language center in the brain isn't capable of handling that precise of a definition when trying to process a pronoun. To signify that you are speaking about a group containing both the second and third person requires explicit elaboration, and cannot be done with one pronoun.

Again - 'this is what we preach'.
 
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Jack Terrence

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You say faith is an option for the reprobate, but is this a genuine 'offer' to the reprobate? No, it is not, for the believing reprobate does not have a Jesus who died for them.
Correct. Faith is NOT an option for the reprobate. God offers them NOTHING, and Christ did NOT die for them.

Paul said that the promises are for the children of the patriarchs Jews and Gentiles alike. Acts 13:33
 
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Jack Terrence

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Question: If Paul believed in limited atonement then he would be as concerned as you are that the words, 'Christ died for our sins', were not preached to unbelievers. Why doesn't Paul guard against this?
Answered already but you have rejected it.
 
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Hammster

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Yes. Would you care to make your point?

He didn't preach to them. And where it does mention preaching, it doesn't say that he did so to unbeliever.

This is all irrelevant, though. You still haven't shown that unbelievers were his audience in relation to chapter 15.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Acts 14:1-7
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them, they learned of it and fled to Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and to the surrounding country, and there they continued to preach the gospel.
Paul could not have been addressing the unbelieving Jews in the synagogue. He had just exercised his apostolic authority and pronounced them "unworthy of eternal life" (13:46).

Does context mean anything to you?
 
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janxharris

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Correct. Faith is NOT an option for the reprobate. God offers them NOTHING, and Christ did NOT die for them.

Paul said that the promises are for the children of the patriarchs Jews and Gentiles alike. Acts 13:33

I have no idea how you grapple with this.
 
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Jack Terrence

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I have no idea how you grapple with this.
I don't "grapple" with it. I find assurance in consistency. It was when I believed and taught the "general call" doctrine that I grappled because it is contradictory.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Except that Paul specifies that 'this is what we preach', and 'this' is defined in veres 3 and 4.
I'm going to start with this one, because you've deployed this phrase throughout your response as if it were a killer rebuttal to anything I've said. I will confess it's hard for me to follow your train of thought here, because saying "Paul said 'this is what we preach'" in defense of your direct quote problem, your direct quote clusivity problem, your indirect quote clusivity problem, or your universalism problem strikes me as a tremendous non-sequitur.

When Paul wrote "this is what we preach," I take him at face value as saying that what he wrote to the Corinthians is identical in meaning and substance as what he spoke to them at the outset.

But as we have known since the Greek philosophers, something of the same substance may take many forms. In language, grammatical, syntactical, and metasyntactical conventions are these forms. They are modified when context demands it. I have supplied you with replete examples of situations where indirect quotes change the person and clusivity of a statement without modifying its meaning or substance. You have basically not interacted with these examples.

Question: If Paul believed in limited atonement then he would be as concerned as you are that the words, 'Christ died for our sins', were not preached to unbelievers. Why doesn't Paul guard against this?
You have foundationally not proven that the words "Christ died for our sins" are a direct quote, and even if it were, you don't have the context of this direct quote. If there were so much as a single exclusive "our" used previously in his entire sermon - and I have given you one example of how particular redemption might have been preached using an exclusive "our" - your entire argument is groundless.




Unmentioned?
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

He addresses them directly. We know that Paul had some misgivings about the the Corinthian church (sexual immorality, denial of the resurrection of the dead and irreverence of the Lord's Supper), so his recapitulation of the gospel is consistent with such concerns.
You call that a mention of unbelievers? "By this Gospel you are saved." Are the unregenerate not tautologically unsaved by the Gospel?

Being frank, what seems to be going on here is this. You're an Arminian. When you read the Bible, you color in the details from your beliefs about what the Apostles believed. When you hear that Paul said "Christ died for our sins" evangelistically, you imagine what he was saying, and what he was doing. You hear a warm intonation in "our" that sounds inclusive of the audience. You see him motion across the room to everyone. You feel that this is what happened, and you load the passage with that feeling, and demand that Calvinists integrate that passage, overflowing with your Arminian intonations which were originally alien to the text, into their theology. Of course, the passage is already accepted in our theology. The passage just doesn't have any of those Arminian intonations.

When I hear that Paul preached this, if I accept the direct quote theory (which I don't have any reason to accept, as of yet), I naturally hear him speak as an emissary to an alien people. When he says "we," he speaks of himself and his his people. He waves across the room and says something like "repent from your sins and believe, and you also will be saved together with us." Of course this is just as unfounded as your assumptions, but then again, I'm not making absurd demands that you explain why Paul, if he wanted to argue for a general atonement, didn't do that, but instead said "Christ died for our sins." Ours, as in not yours if you don't believe. Any objection you can make to what I just wrote, I can throw back at this entire thread.
 
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