What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

[janxharris]

Show us where his contemporaries did.

verse 11: Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

'this' refers to:

'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.'

 

[Hammster]

How about you deal with the fact that the gospel Paul preached included this: 'Christ died for our sins'.

How about you deal with the fact that he's addressing the group he identified in chapter 1?

 

[Hammster]

verse 11: Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

'this' refers to:

'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.'

Well, since you've already misunderstood what Paul meant then it would follow that you'd think his contemporaries would do the same.

Anywhere else in scripture that you can point to?

 

[janxharris]

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that Christ was delivered up for the sins of humanity, or to redeem the human race, or whatever. But to proclaim it apart from there being a particular remnant, a people set apart, those whom He foreknew, etc. is just plain ignorance.

Further, Acts 2:38 seems to indicate that in order for the forgiveness of sins to be applicable to those present, they must first repent. Atonement necessarily involves removal of sin which implies a negation of guilt i.e. forgiveness. To say that there is an atonement of all people's sin apart from a forgiveness of all people's sin is disjointed. Yet if you do not believe they are separate and you believe that all people have been forgiven of sin, you are at odds with Acts 2:38.

Indeed, one must believe for the atonement to be applied, but the thrust of the thread is that Christ died for all men rather than some. If Christ did not die for all men then you can't preach to non-believers and say 'Christ died for our sins'. That it is the fact that this was the gospel (part of it) that Paul preached shows that Christ did die for all men.

 

[guuila]

verse 11: Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

'this' refers to:

'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.'

If I sent you a letter in the mail, and in it I said "Christ died for our sins..." why would you assume I'm talking about the entirety of the human race?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Indeed, one must believe for the atonement to be applied

You believe this?

 

[guuila]

I guess this was overlooked...

After all, it is the good news, isn't it?

It is awesome news that Christ didn't suffer and die for people in hell. God does not require double payment. Christ's atonement was sufficient.

I guess you think it's good news that Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before he was ever born? What was Jesus hoping to accomplish by doing that?

 

[janxharris]

Well, since you've already misunderstood what Paul meant then it would follow that you'd think his contemporaries would do the same.

Anywhere else in scripture that you can point to?

You have not refuted what I have asserted. Paul could have made it quite clear, if he had wanted to, that one is not to preach to non-believers and give them the impression that Christ died for them.

The gospel we preach, Paul says, includes the fact that Christ died for our sins. Preachers talk to non-believers.

That is good news.

'Christ died for a select group' is very bad news.

 

[guuila]

'Christ died for a select group' is very bad news.

To whom?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You have not refuted what I have asserted. Paul could have made it quite clear, if he had wanted to, that one is not to preach to non-believers and give them the impression that Christ died for them.

The gospel we preach, Paul says, includes the fact that Christ died for our sins. Preachers talk to non-believers.

That is good news.

'Christ died for a select group' is very bad news.

So of course, Christ didn't die for the sin of unbelief of everyone.

I suppose Paul should have been more clear about that.

 

[janxharris]

I guess this was overlooked...

It is awesome news that Christ didn't suffer and die for people in hell. God does not require double payment. Christ's atonement was sufficient.

I guess you think it's good news that Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before he was ever born? What was Jesus hoping to accomplish by doing that?

Christ died for all men. Those that end up in hell didn't want it. Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before Jesus was born.

Where is the cut off point griff. Are we talking nano-seconds before Jesus was born???

Aren't you glad you weren't part of the OT mob???

Where do you get this from? So God is love - is that right griff?

 

[Hammster]

You have not refuted what I have asserted. Paul could have made it quite clear, if he had wanted to, that one is not to preach to non-believers and give them the impression that Christ died for them.

The gospel we preach, Paul says, includes the fact that Christ died for our sins. Preachers talk to non-believers.

That is good news.

'Christ died for a select group' is very bad news.

Paul was pretty clear in chapter one who he was writing to. So "our" meant his sins and those of his audience. You'd have to show that he changed audiences in chapter 15.

 

[Hammster]

Christ died for all men. Those that end up in hell didn't want it. Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before Jesus was born.

Where is the cut off point griff. Are we talking nano-seconds before Jesus was born???

Aren't you glad you weren't part of the OT mob???

Where do you get this from? So God is love - is that right griff?

Do you consider hell to be punishment for sin?

 

[guuila]

Christ died for all men. Those that end up in hell didn't want it. Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before Jesus was born.

Where is the cut off point griff. Are we talking nano-seconds before Jesus was born???

Aren't you glad you weren't part of the OT mob???

Where do you get this from? So God is love - is that right griff?

Are you going to answer my question?

 

[janxharris]

Paul was pretty clear in chapter one who he was writing to. So "our" meant his sins and those of his audience. You'd have to show that he changed audiences in chapter 15.

Except that this was what Paul preached to them when they didn't believe. It is also what 'we preach' as in verse 11. You don't preach to a crowd of unbelievers and tell them that Christ died for believers sins.

When you say that Christ died for our sins to a crowd of non-believers they know that you are including them.

 

[janxharris]

Are you going to answer my question?

I guess you think it's good news that Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before he was ever born? What was Jesus hoping to accomplish by doing that?

Yes. Very good news.

God showed his love to us...

Romans 5:6-8
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If you think that this only applies to those born after a certain date then we may as well throw the bible in the ditch.

I won't be throwing the bible in the ditch by the way.

 

[janxharris]

Are you going to answer my question?

Perhaps you would care to address my post.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Indeed, one must believe for the atonement to be applied.

Sorry to be a broken record, but I think it is necessary for us to know exactly what you believe about the atonement before we continue.

You seem to be advocating an "unlimited atonement" position by continually saying that "Christ died for everyone". Yet above you say that "one must believe for the atonement to be applied". I can only understand that to mean you don't believe the atonement was universal and atoned for all sin, or at least that imputation doesn't occur until the moment of justification. It is one thing to believe it is capable, quite another to actually believe it accomplished something for all.

Can you please outline what you believe here?

 

[Epiphoskei]

When you say that Christ died for our sins to a crowd of non-believers they know that you are including them.

What Corinthians indicates is that Paul told the Corinthians that he had told the Corinthians that Christ died for their sins. You are too far removed from the original context of the statement being reported within the statement to determine either clusivity, or, for that matter, what the direct quote version of Paul's statement was.

The statement "Christ died for our sins" needs to be understood purely in its actual context, that of a letter written from Paul to Christians.

 

[Skala]

Well that is a leap. You would have to provide a bit more than this speculation.

When the high priest was going into the holy of holies to make atonement, when he wore a vest with the 12 tribes of israel on it, was he including the pagan nations and gentiles in his ritual?