Somehow,somewhere,somewhen

[Subduction Zone]

Oncedecieved, you are deceiving yourself.

How sad.

 

[Skaloop]

Out of all of the material that you gave me, there is not one other than Jesus that can be shown to really exist.

What do you mean "other than Jesus"? Jesus can't be shown to exist either.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Designed in the lab to see if it could be altered to get the same result. I rest my case. [/quoute]

Oh you are so blind. The only way we could see if there was an alternative to DNA was to design it in a lab. You are being disingenuous at best here.

I know that the only way is in a lab and with alterations to materials picked by intelligent agents. I am not being disingenuous, the truth is that these are all actions in connection with intelligent agents. How do we set that aside? I am just stating the obvious. Yes, we can try to recreate something in a lab that has been known to happen such as in the case of DNA. There are parameters that have to be used in doing that. With something that has never arisen in anyway, we are "designing" from materials that have not been shown to arise previously. So at best this is nothing more than design. It can be nothing less.

You take anything that has the slightest bit of hope that it refers to a god, any god, to be evidence for your god. Even if the developers of that idea don't see it your way at all. Physicists do not think of the fine tuning as any sort of evidence for god. They are the ones who understand it best.

Paul Davies: These rules look as if they are the product of intelligent design. I do not see how that can be denied. Whether you wish to believe they really have been so designed, and if so by what sort of being, must remain a matter of personal taste. ..... Although many metaphysical and theistic theories seem contrived or childish, they are not obviously more absurd than the belief that the universe exists, and exists in the form it does, reasonlessly.


"the string landscape may explain how the constants of nature that we observe can take values suitable for life without being fine-tuned by a benevolent creator." (Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg, "Living in the Multiverse").


"The laws of gravity, quantum mechanics, and a rich Landscape [the set of all possible universes] together with the laws of large numbers are all that's needed to explain the friendliness of our patch of the universe. But on the other hand, neither does anything in this book diminish the lilelihood that an intelligent agent creaed the universe for some purpose..... [But] If there is a God, she has taken great pains to make herself irrelevant."(Leonard Susskind, "The Cosmic Landscape").


Lee Smolin: Defenders of theistic explanations assert that it might be the case that there is a god who made the universe and tuned its parameters so that we could exist. It might. Similarly, defenders of anthropic multiverse scenarios assert that it might just be the case that our universe is one of a vast collection of worlds with random laws and parameters. This also might be true. But science is not about what might be true, it is about what can convincingly be argued for by rational argument from public evidence. If we weaken this standard to admit the anthropic multiverse, we open the door to equally unscientific theistic explanations. The proponents of each can (and do) argue with each other, but they will never convince each other, for they have given up the method and criteria that are necessary to make a convincing case for a claim in science. Meanwhile, the fine-tuning observation is a challenge that requires a scientific explanation.
Scientific Approaches to the Fine-Tuning Problem « NOVA's Physics Blog: The Nature of Reality

So while they admit that Fine tuning could be because of God they can not allow that being a scientific reason. They know what it means, I assure you and I am not perceiving it falsely.

I knew that they did not think the world was flat during the Middle Ages. Why did you try to move the goal posts to their in the first place. We are talking about very early AD and before. Second, you were supposed to answr the question about how Columbus was wrong. Your answer shows that you cannot even think of why Columbus was wrong. Tsk tsk, poor history and no reasoning skills. Okay, Columbus was first rejected because he thought the Earth was much smaller than it is. That is why his first attempt was rejected and he did not get funded. You have to remember his goal was to sail to India. Hence the word "Indians". His crew was almost about to mutiny when he hit the New World, specifically some islands in the Caribbean. Take a globe. Look how far it is from Genoa to the Caribbean, now see how much further it is to India going east from there. Columbus died thinking that he had found a route to India. He was wrong, the scientists were right.

I just didn't know what you were getting at when you said Columbus was wrong.

It did not make that point. One more time, that article was about the Middle Ages. If you want to claim that the writers of the Bible did not believe the world was flat you need to find an article about them. Not about Europeans of the Middle Ages.

It is all about interpretation and translation and one's presuppositions.

And I gave you other examples of the world being flat besides that one verse. Remember the world being flat is shown by both verse and deed. In three different spots in the Bible it talks about the whole Earth being visible from a tall object. That is only possible on a flat Earth. From even the tallest mountain on the Earth you can only see less than 1% of the surface.

Even at the highest point on a flat earth you could not see the entire earth, so how does that help your claim?

You have continually dismissed my points in my posts or do not want to respond to them...which is it?

 

[FatBurk]

Oncedecieved, you are deceiving yourself.

How sad.

Not only sad but a complete waste of time and effort, like searching for Bigfoot a Yeti or a white whale.

In my honest opinion I think Christianity is rife in the US because it's a new country, if they lived where people have lived and died for thousands of years they would see their own very short lives quite differently.

 

[HitchSlap]

Not only sad but a complete waste of time and effort, like searching for Bigfoot a Yeti or a white whale.

In my honest opinion I think Christianity is rife in the US because it's a new country, if they lived where people have lived and died for thousands of years they would see their own very short lives quite differently.

And yet, a large bipedal primate is not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[Skaloop]

Even at the highest point on a flat earth you could not see the entire earth, so how does that help your claim?

Yes, you could.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What do you mean "other than Jesus"? Jesus can't be shown to exist either.

There are sources other than the Bible that are evidence of His existence.


in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . .

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians

And this which some say has been altered or added to later. However, the part that has been added is the first part about Him questioning if He should be called a man and wise.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared "Testimonium Flavianum

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, you could.

What? Are you being serious?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Oncedecieved, you are deceiving yourself.

How sad.

I am deceiving myself about what specifically?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Not only sad but a complete waste of time and effort, like searching for Bigfoot a Yeti or a white whale.

In my honest opinion I think Christianity is rife in the US because it's a new country, if they lived where people have lived and died for thousands of years they would see their own very short lives quite differently.

So what are you doing on here?

 

[Skaloop]

What? Are you being serious?

Yes, I am. It's simple geometry. If you're at the highest point of an otherwise flat plane, there is nothing to obstruct your view of the entire surface of that plane.

 

[Skaloop]

There are sources other than the Bible that are evidence of His existence.


in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . .

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians

And this which some say has been altered or added to later. However, the part that has been added is the first part about Him questioning if He should be called a man and wise.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared "Testimonium Flavianum

There are sources other than Marvel Comics that talk about Spiderman. There are sources other than the Harry Potter books that talk about Harry Potter.

That Jesus was mentioned by others doesn't show that he was real, it shows, at best, that others were familiar with the story of Jesus.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yeah. It's simple geometry. If you're at the highest point of an otherwise flat plane, there is nothing to obstruct your view of the entire surface.

I said the entire earth. However, even on the hightest mountain your vantage point is extremely limited.

 

[Oncedeceived]

There are sources other than Marvel Comics that talk about Spiderman. There are sources other than the Harry Potter books that talk about Harry Potter.

That Jesus was mentioned by others doesn't show that he was real, it shows, at best, that others were familiar with the story of Jesus.

Denial at its finest. And you all think that we deceive ourselves.

 

[Skaloop]

I said the entire earth. However, even on the hightest mountain your vantage point is extremely limited.

No, it's not. Please demonstrate how the vantage point is limited. Which part of a flat Earth would not be visible from the highest point on said flat Earth?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually from a high enough point on a flat Earth you COULD see everything. Unless someone is covered overhead by something. On a spherical Earth you cannot even see 1% of the world from the highest mountain. Verses when it says that the whole world saw someone up in the clouds or that the Devil took Jesus to a high point to see the entire Earth point directly to a belief in a flat Earth.

And you have yet to tell me whether you believe the Noah's Ark myth yet.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, it's not. Please demonstrate how the vantage point is limited. Which part of a flat Earth would not be visible from the highest point on said flat Earth?

It is only physically possible to see a certain distance away and also atmospheric conditions at something as high as would be needed (still impossible) would counter the height. Regardless, being a flat or round earth is not a factor. The area around the mountain (tree) would be flat anyway. It is simply not a factor in concluding one or the other.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Actually from a high enough point on a flat Earth you COULD see everything. Unless someone is covered overhead by something. On a spherical Earth you cannot even see 1% of the world from the highest mountain. Verses when it says that the whole world saw someone up in the clouds or that the Devil took Jesus to a high point to see the entire Earth point directly to a belief in a flat Earth.

And you have yet to tell me whether you believe the Noah's Ark myth yet.

So I see that you like to remain in your comfort zone and only talk about your misgivings about the things you feel you can attack by interpretation rather than those things in the scientific arena that can be shown by the evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are sources other than the Bible that are evidence of His existence.


in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . .

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians

And this which some say has been altered or added to later. However, the part that has been added is the first part about Him questioning if He should be called a man and wise.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared "Testimonium Flavianum

He did not write that in 64. He would have been about ten at the time. He was writing about an event, a great fire in Rome, that occurred in 64 AD. Even Christian scholars agree that he wrote his line about Jesus in the second century AD:


Tacitus and Jesus. Christ Myth Refuted. Did Jesus Exist? A Christian Response

"Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. "


Tacitus was born roughly 25 years after Jesus' death so he definitely was not an eyewitness.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So I see that you like to remain in your comfort zone and only talk about your misgivings about the things you feel you can attack by interpretation rather than those things in the scientific arena that can be shown by the evidence.

No, I am trying to turn it back to science. I feel the evidence is strongly on my side. The word used in Isaiah refers to a circle, many other verses describe a flat Earth. There are no verses that like the Earth to a ball. Find one and I will admit that I am wrong.