Mutation gives mouse poison resistance

[dad]

But we don't.

Check out this act, then, o ye of little faith.

 

[EternalDragon]

Yea, the story goes he brought the rain, which caused the flood and caused a torturous death for many people, this loving God.

He either likes to use the weather (and several other means) as a weapon to torture people (he loves so much), or weather patterns are what they are, with no influence from a diety.

Love is a two way street.

Your idea of God requires Him to just allow people to do whatever
their hearts desire and have God just look away. Rape, pillage, murder,
steal, throw a fist in the air to God, etc. and they get a free ride.

It doesn't work that way and I am sure your parents did not raise
you that way either.

 

[dad]

Yea, the story goes he brought the rain, which caused the flood and caused a torturous death for many people, this loving God.

He either likes to use the weather (and several other means) as a weapon to torture people (he loves so much), or weather patterns are what they are, with no influence from a diety.

In Job, it was Satan that used the weather. But a righteous God could use it also as needed. We should get used to the idea that there are greater powers than man.

 

[bhsmte]

In Job, it was Satan that used the weather. But a righteous God could use it also as needed. We should get used to the idea that there are greater powers than man.

Are you saying Satan caused the flood or God?

Yes, there are greater powers than man, nature.

 

[bhsmte]

Love is a two way street.

Your idea of God requires Him to just allow people to do whatever
their hearts desire and have God just look away. Rape, pillage, murder,
steal, throw a fist in the air to God, etc. and they get a free ride.

It doesn't work that way and I am sure your parents did not raise
you that way either.

Your idea of God requires him to be; all loving, all powerful, has a plan for everyone, etc. etc. and yet part of that plan is causing a torturous death for many. All because, he created man flawed and he knew they would sin.

Yea, that makes perfect sense.

 

[biggles53]

No one is making the claims of the bible. They were made long ago. You have no objective ability to dispute God's word. Face it. So don't tout some silly 'objectivity'!
Same closet as the evidence for last week.We don't. Some reference to Jesus and certain events and people are found in secular records. Obviously. Jerusalem was the record center, and central place for Jews. There was apparently, for example, a complete genealogy in the temple. This was referred to by some in the New Testament it is felt. However, the temple and city were destroyed. The rulers of the land also were the ones that had Jesus killed, and were enemies of God and gospel. The very fact that we have the best record on earth regardless of all the insane opposition and impossible circumstances screams out all the louder..'this is truth'!

Ummm...you might remember that it was the ROMANS who were the rulers of the land at that time.......and the Romans kept detailed records of the events that took place in their territories. Please indicate ANY reference by a Roman ( or Jewish) historian to the execution, resurrection and ascendance of one Jesus of Nazareth.......?

No, it's ok .......I'll wait...........

"
If the Crucifixion was in 30 A.D., Paul's Conversion was as early as 34 A.D., and his first meeting in Jerusalem was around 37 A.D., then we could see that the time between the event of Christ's crucifixion and Paul receiving the information about His death, burial, and resurrection (in Jerusalem) would be as short as seven years (five if we use the earlier date). That is a very short period of time and hardly long enough for legend to creep in and corrupt the story. This is especially important since the apostles were alive and spoke with Paul. They were eyewitness accounts to Christ's death, burial, and post-death appearances. Paul himself had seen the Lord Jesus prior to His death and after His resurrection (Acts 9). Paul's account agreed with the other Apostles' account and Paul wrote it down in 1 Cor. 15 around the year 54.
So, since 1 Corinthians was written as early as 54 A.D., that would mean that from the event (Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection) to writing it down is 24 years. That is a very short period of time. Remember, there were plenty of Christians around who could have corrected the writings of Paul if he was in error. But we have no record at all of any corrections or challenges to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ from anyone: Roman, Jew, or other Christians.
We must note here that some critics of the Bible claim that there is no extrabiblical evidence of Christ (not true) and that because of it, He didn't exist. The sword cuts both ways. If they can say that Jesus' events aren't real because there is no extrabiblical evidence mentioning them, then we can also say that since there are no extrabiblical accounts refuting the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then it must be true. In other words, lack of extrabiblical writings does not prove that Christ did not live and did not die.
Furthermore, Paul corroborated the gospel accounts (He wrote before the gospels were written) and verified several things:

• Jesus was born in as a Jew (Gal. 4:4),
• Jesus was betrayed (1 Cor. 11:23)
• Jesus was crucified (Gal. 3:1; 1 Cor. 2:2; Phil. 2:8).
• Jesus was buried and rose again (1 Cor. 15:4; Rom. 6:4).

Obviously, Paul considered Jesus a historical figure, not a legend or a myth. Furthermore, Paul was a man of great integrity who suffered much for his faith. He was not the kind of person simply to believe tall tales. After all, he was a devout Jew (a Pharisee) and a heavy persecutor of the Church. Something profound had to happen to him to get him to change his position, abandon the Jewish faith and tradition, suffer persecutions, whippings, jail, etc. The most likely event that fits the bill is that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again from the dead, and appeared to Paul, just as Luke said in Acts 9."


1 Cor. 15:3-4 demonstrates a creed too early for legend to corrupt. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Again, you resort to the testimony of someone who was not present for the events that are claimed....!

That's hearsay.....

And there is NO-ONE outside of the biblical text who supports the claims made...!

 

[CabVet]

Check out this act, then, o ye of little faith.

Sorry, that's not rain.

 

[dad]

Are you saying Satan caused the flood or God?

Yes, there are greater powers than man, nature.

The great worldwide flood of Noah was caused by God. In the case of the storm on the sea that Jesus calmed, and the storms that killed Job's family, and etc...those were caused by Satan I assume.

Nature is an overused word, and says little. The present nature and past and future natures in the bible are not one and the same. Even in this present nature, events that happen are not really 'natural', except in the sense that this present state is wonky, so they are normal within this state. But, as we looked at earlier in this post, even the events of nature are often caused by spirits!

 

[dad]

Sorry, that's not rain.

Falling water is rain let's not get into semantics. If you want some pure definition of rain, as strictly a part of the worldwide ecosystem, fine. Rain still has the trait of falling due to the laws in place! It also has the trait of getting stuff wet! In the bible, we see that it rained fire and brimstone on some wicked cities. On other planets, they say it rains also.

"Rain is also known or suspected on other planets, where it may be composed of methane, neon, sulfuric acid or even iron rather than water."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain


Now, a man, that is mankind, can walk. That is a trait! If we get a little cut, we can heal up. That is a trait. We also can adapt, as mice can, through various means such as what you call mutations. That is a trait. Just deal with it, and let's not get into time wasting petty semantics.

 

[dad]

Ummm...you might remember that it was the ROMANS who were the rulers of the land at that time.......and the Romans kept detailed records of the events that took place in their territories. Please indicate ANY reference by a Roman ( or Jewish) historian to the execution, resurrection and ascendance of one Jesus of Nazareth.......?

Those that Jesus had with Him at His departure did not include Romans. The Romans guarding the tomb were bribed to shut up also. As I said, the leaders were hostile to Jesus.


"
The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]
The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in AD 64 during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero.[2] The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origins of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.[3][4]
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

Again, you resort to the testimony of someone who was not present for the events that are claimed....!

That's hearsay.....

John was present as were others at the death of Christ actually. Hundreds more saw Him after He arose from the dead.



"
The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.[1][3]
Scholarly opinion on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum, varies.[4][5][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[11] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]
Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" [12] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[13][1][2][14][15][16] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic.[17][18][19]
The references found in Antiquities have no parallel texts in the other work by Josephus such as the Jewish War, written 20 years earlier, but some scholars have provided explanations for their absence.[20] A number of variations exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the deaths of James and John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.[17][21] Scholars generally view these variations as indications that the Josephus passages are not interpolations, for a Christian interpolator would have made them correspond to the New Testament accounts, not differ from them.[17][22][21]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

 

[biggles53]

Those that Jesus had with Him at His departure did not include Romans.

Really...? Could have sworn there were reports of Roman guards when he 'departed' this life........and yet, NO REPORT from any Roman historian of the event....! Now, if by 'departure' you mean his claimed ascension, may I remind you yet again that there was NO ONE who claimed to be present at that event who left a written record of what they saw.....all we have are hearsay accounts written well after the event, based upon often conflicting stories...

The Romans guarding the tomb were bribed to shut up also.

Documentary evidence please.....

As I said, the leaders were hostile to Jesus.

So, why is it claimed that he was given the honour of a tomb for burial, rather than the plain grave that was usual for criminals and troublemakers....?

"
The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]
The context of the passage is the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of the city in AD 64 during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero.[2] The passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to the origins of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Canonical gospels, and the presence and persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome.[3][4]
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

Again you make my case....! Tacitus is doing nothing more than repeating a story that he was told...! That there were Christians in existence is obvious. That they claimed allegiance to 'Christus' is equally obvious. But, NONE of this is direct evidence of the claims made in the Bible...!

John was present as were others at the death of Christ actually. Hundreds more saw Him after He arose from the dead.

Again, outside of the Bible, where is any supporting evidence...??

"
The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.[1][3]
Scholarly opinion on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum, varies.[4][5][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[11] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]
Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" [12] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[13][1][2][14][15][16] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic.[17][18][19]
The references found in Antiquities have no parallel texts in the other work by Josephus such as the Jewish War, written 20 years earlier, but some scholars have provided explanations for their absence.[20] A number of variations exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the deaths of James and John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.[17][21] Scholars generally view these variations as indications that the Josephus passages are not interpolations, for a Christian interpolator would have made them correspond to the New Testament accounts, not differ from them.[17][22][21]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

See my reference to Tacitus' accounts...

This is no difference to me claiming that the Greek heroes in the Odyssey and the Iliad are true, because Homer wrote about them and that others repeated Homer's accounts...!

Actually there is a difference.....we can be reasonably confident who Homer was, as opposed to the shadowy authors of most of the Bible...!

 

[biggles53]

I just want to ask a question and it may sound like a silly one.

So you believe that a colony of mice like creatures, if they had to constantly run uphill and say flap their forearms while doing so to evade predators, would then develop enough mutations to enable their forearms to turn into wings? (New blood vessel layouts, new tendon locations, muscles, etc.)

And then enough other mutations to develop feathers, navigational skills, egg laying ability to become a......bird like creature?

All because they were trying to avoid a predator that they could have avoided by simply running faster or hiding better?

You predicted correctly......it was a very silly question....!

 

[dad]

Really...? Could have sworn there were reports of Roman guards when he 'departed' this life........and yet, NO REPORT from any Roman historian of the event....! Now, if by 'departure' you mean his claimed ascension, may I remind you yet again that there was NO ONE who claimed to be present at that event who left a written record of what they saw.....all we have are hearsay accounts written well after the event, based upon often conflicting stories...

Try reading the bible. An angel was even telling some believers that Jesus would come again, in like manner.

Documentary evidence please.....

The document that covers the life of Jesus six ways from Sunday-- the bible is quite clear on that. It is the document that sets the very year on the calendar. Now we can get into how they now think the date was wrong...but I suspect that, although the exact date doesn't matter, they may be closer than we thought.

So, why is it claimed that he was given the honour of a tomb for burial, rather than the plain grave that was usual for criminals and troublemakers....?

That would be due to converts, not the leaders. That was a fulfilled prophesy also!

Again you make my case....! Tacitus is doing nothing more than repeating a story that he was told...! That there were Christians in existence is obvious. That they claimed allegiance to 'Christus' is equally obvious. But, NONE of this is direct evidence of the claims made in the Bible...!

That depends on what claims. If you mean the claim Jesus died, well, it is evidence. Do you think that president Putin would claim Stalin never lived? Stalin was recent enough to be in the memory and records, regardless of whether Putin ever actually met him.

Again, outside of the Bible, where is any supporting evidence...??

God gave us the bible. That is where man must look. Outside of that one can not confirm or deny the events that happened with any authority or certainty.

This is no difference to me claiming that the Greek heroes in the Odyssey and the Iliad are true, because Homer wrote about them and that others repeated Homer's accounts...!

Big difference actually.

Actually there is a difference.....we can be reasonably confident who Homer was, as opposed to the shadowy authors of most of the Bible...!

God is the author of the bible. Paul is not in any doubt, nor John, and etc. I suspect that you need recovery from a sad education.

 

[biggles53]

I don't know if I can write this in one hit, without having to stop to laugh hysterically.............let's see..

Try reading the bible. An angel was even telling some believers that Jesus would come again, in like manner.

Oh I see......so now "angels" fit the bill of independent evidence....!?

The document that covers the life of Jesus six ways from Sunday-- the bible is quite clear on that. It is the document that sets the very year on the calendar. Now we can get into how they now think the date was wrong...but I suspect that, although the exact date doesn't matter, they may be closer than we thought.

And yet again you make my case for me....you have NOTHING in the way of corroborating evidence, outside of the self-serving claims made in the Bible itself....this is the point I have been making...!

That would be due to converts, not the leaders. That was a fulfilled prophesy also!

What converts..? Who arranged his tomb..? Evidence please, not your wild assertions...

That depends on what claims. If you mean the claim Jesus died, well, it is evidence. Do you think that president Putin would claim Stalin never lived? Stalin was recent enough to be in the memory and records, regardless of whether Putin ever actually met him.

That he DIED is hardly the point.....everyone dies..! So that a man lived and died is some form of miracle...?? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE, OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, THAT THE MAN JESUS ROSE FROM THAT DEATH...!?

God gave us the bible. That is where man must look. Outside of that one can not confirm or deny the events that happened with any authority or certainty.

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.....that the ONLY reference you have to these events is the Bible itself.........why did you need to beat around the bush...?

Big difference actually

.

No, hardly any......I can provide you with plenty of evidence that Homer wrote about certain characters and events in the Greek myths. By your logic, this would make those characters and events real........right..?

God is the author of the bible. Paul is not in any doubt, nor John, and etc. I suspect that you need recovery from a sad education.

And Allah is the one true god, because Mohammed was "not in any doubt" as well........and a magic gnome lives at the bottom of my garden, because I'm not in any doubt too...

See how that works...?

 

[AV1611VET]

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE, OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE, THAT THE MAN JESUS ROSE FROM THAT DEATH...!?

Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Upset because you weren't chosen?

 

[CabVet]

Falling water is rain let's not get into semantics.

No. Falling water is not rain. A lake is not an ocean. The roof of a house is not the sky.

 

[AV1611VET]

No. Falling water is not rain. A lake is not an ocean. The roof of a house is not the sky.

The Flood was caused, in part, by a technical process called raining.

 

[CabVet]

The Flood was caused, in part, by a technical process called raining.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, rly ... as well as reservoirs of water coming up from the ground.

 

[CabVet]

Yes, rly ... as well as reservoirs of water coming up from the ground.