Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?

[Rev Randy]

Yes.

No. Purgatory does not exist to 'administer pain'. Spiritual or physical pain may be an aspect of their healing. All healing that is deep down has suffering involved. Protestants, especially the health and wealth Gospel ones, see pain and suffering as purely evil, absent of redemptive properities.

In order to PERFECT them and also satisfy justice.

No, it is a place of becoming perfect.

Imagine your soul is a wooden board. Nails, representing sins, are hammered into it. Jesus removes those sins. Yet, the holes, the damage of the nails remains.

That's the goal of purgatory

Any pain that may exists is not 'administered' by God. Is the release of suffering from the individual.

You are not seeing suffering as being a redemptive factor for the believer.

Purgatory is a place to deal with your garbage. Rehab is not easy. Your infatuation with sin has indeed, now the healing must begin. No one is forcing pain on you necessarily. The pain is the release of years of spiritual pain brought on by your own actions.

This "pain' aspect seems to confuse some and they end up thinking RCs believe in some sort of mini-hell. I'm not understand the Roman concept to be anything of that sort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't finding oneself in Purgatory mean you've made it(destined for heaven)? i mean I understand purgatory is not for the damned but for the elect. So any pain or shame, it would seem should be overshadowed by the fact one is destined to be with God.
Am I understanding the belief in the right manner?

 

[WisdomTree]

This "pain' aspect seems to confuse some and they end up thinking RCs believe in some sort of mini-hell. I'm not understand the Roman concept to be anything of that sort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't finding oneself in Purgatory mean you've made it(destined for heaven)? i mean I understand purgatory is not for the damned but for the elect. So any pain or shame, it would seem should be overshadowed by the fact one is destined to be with God.
Am I understanding the belief in the right manner?

You are correct to assume that purgatory is for the elect (but still need the final purging of post-baptisminal sins) according to the Catholic Church. I assume that it is in a way the equivalent of the Orthodox apocatastasis for the souls awaiting judgement. In my personal opinion, I think that pain or shame is an assumption on what purgatory is like due to the final purification where with the influence of the human imagination on what that may be like, it is not too suprising that most people would think such a thing.

 

[Rev Randy]

You are correct to assume that purgatory is for the elect (but still need the final purging of post-baptisminal sins) according to the Catholic Church. I assume that it is in a way the equivalent of the Orthodox apocatastasis for the souls awaiting judgement. In my personal opinion, I think that pain or shame is an assumption on what purgatory is like due to the final purification where with the influence of the human imagination on what that may be like, it is not too suprising that most people would think such a thing.

Thank you. I used the word shame instead of pain as I see them the same but in my reading the teachings I'm just not seeing the pain part. It's why I used the iconography as a point. I mean if I were to adopt this belief, i'm pretty sure I'd be looking to the one with Jesus wiping my brow clean over the fire to the waist. But i noticed even in that icon the people did not appear to be in any torment by the look on their faces.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pain and shame may play a role but joy and anticipation definitely play a role in the purgatorial experience because as each fault and each imperfection is burned away before the unquenchable love of God (our God is a consuming fire) what remains is solid and sure and filled with life (the life of Jesus Christ in his people) and love for God that ultimately will yield the peaceable fruit of communion with God.

 

[Albion]

In my personal opinion, I think that pain or shame is an assumption on what purgatory is like due to the final purification where with the influence of the human imagination on what that may be like, it is not too suprising that most people would think such a thing.

...since that is what the church teaches about it.

 

[Rev Randy]

Pain and shame may play a role but joy and anticipation definitely play a role in the purgatorial experience because as each fault and each imperfection is burned away before the unquenchable love of God (our God is a consuming fire) what remains is solid and sure and filled with life (the life of Jesus Christ in his people) and love for God that ultimately will yield the peaceable fruit of communion with God.

Thank you brother. That helps me to better understand what is believed concerning purgatory.
thinking about it, anticipation is a pain of sorts.Not necessarily a bad pain but a pain all the same Not unlike love.One not willing to endure some pain will not truly know love.

 

[Albion]

Thank you brother. That helps me to better understand what is believed concerning purgatory.
thinking about it, anticipation is a pain of sorts.Not necessarily a bad pain but a pain all the same Not unlike love.One not willing to endure some pain will not truly know love.

More Coffee is correct about that point but don't misunderstand the point. The souls in Purgatory theoretically do experience both suffering and anticipation. They are believed to know what it's all about and that they will in "time" be loosed in order to go to Heaven. IOW, they are being punished but know that great joy awaits them ultimately.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is not that they are punished but rather that they are purged of the remaining marks of character left by sin.

 

[Albion]

It is not that they are punished but rather that they are purged of the remaining marks of character left by sin.

No, it IS that they are punished. They are in Purgatory precisely because of having committed sins for which only partial penalty has been paid.

 

[Standing Up]

No, it IS that they are punished. They are in Purgatory precisely because of having committed sins for which only partial penalty has been paid.

You are right, of course.

1472
or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.


PS. Not sure why people of their own religion arguing, don't know their own religion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, it IS that they are punished. They are in Purgatory precisely because of having committed sins for which only partial penalty has been paid.

That statement is incorrect.

 

[MoreCoffee]

1472 or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin

...

Context counts.

X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”81​

“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.”82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83​

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84 (1861, 1031)
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”85 (2447)

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.”86 (946-959, 795)
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.”87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.”88 (617)
1477 “This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.”89 (969)​

-- CCC​

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church's teaching is that the soul goes to Purgatory to pay for unforgiven Venial sins and forgiven Mortal sins, and that the place or state of being is one of punishment.

Now...in the game that people like to play of remaking Purgatory into something they'd like better than the one taught by the church, we get revisions like "it's purification" or "it's an adjustment period," but there is no getting around the fact that if it were the case that the soul needs some adjustment or completion after this life, the reason the church gives for us to be headed there would not be--as it is--UNPAID-FOR SIN.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Catholic Church's teaching is that the soul goes to Purgatory to pay for unforgiven Venial sins and forgiven Mortal sins, and that the place or state of being is one of punishment.

the above claim is pure fiction.

 

[Albion]

the above claim is pure fiction.

Nope. That's the Church's teaching. Plenty of Catholics, particularly recent converts, aren't aware of everything their church teaches and believes. It happens.

Even if we were to confine ourselves to the snippet that you cut and pasted for us, and recognizing that it uses the word "purify" in a different sense than that which has been thrown around on this thread, what we have is a verification of what I've been explaining--

"The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin."

I've noticed before that a lot of the fussing and fuming here is clearly a result of misunderstanding what's in black and white--or blue in this case.

 

[WisdomTree]

This thread is about to become nuked by our robot overlords...

 

[Standing Up]

Nope. That's the Church's teaching. Plenty of Catholics, particularly recent converts, aren't aware of everything their church teaches and believes. It happens.

Even if we were to confine ourselves to the snippet that you cut and pasted for us, and recognizing that it uses the word "purify" in a different sense than that which has been thrown around on this thread, what we have is a verification of what I've been explaining--

"The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin."

I've noticed before that a lot of the fussing and fuming here is clearly a result of misunderstanding what's in black and white--or blue in this case.

Their catechism tends to self-define. They probably got that idea from the bible.

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

PS. Remitted----is-----paid for. Purgatory is to purify them by punishment due their sins that are unpaid for. But, they sell indulgences by which you can pay for the shortcoming of Christ's payment that didn't cover their sins.

 

[Rev Randy]

This thread is about to become nuked by our robot overlords...

I'm surprised it's lasted this long and been as civil as it has.

 

[WisdomTree]

I'm surprised it's lasted this long and been as civil as it has.

You may be giving these fellows to much credit, considering the amount of trolling that has been done also (I believe I am at least partially responsible for this).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yay!!! A continuation thread is about to be born!