Those who denounce Paul

[Hentenza]

He did all things for the sake of spreading his doctrine that he expected to cause people to believe in him.1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

The Greek word μιμηταί (mimetai, from where we get the English work for mimic) does not carry the connotation of following him but of imitating his.

The NKJV has the correct translation.

16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.

Including lie.
[FONT="]Romans 3:7 "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"[/FONT]

You need to follow the argument here instead of isolating verses. From verses 3–4 we glean that the unrighteousness of unbelieving Jews serves to magnify the righteousness of God. In that case, would it not be unjust of God to punish the Jew? “What shall we say?” asked Paul. He answered his own question with a second question, this time anticipating a negative response (God would not be unjust in bringing his wrath on us would he?). The answer (coming in v. 6) is a strong, Certainly not! Just before that, however, Paul inserted a parenthetic apology for the blasphemous thought of God as unjust. The notion that unrighteous conduct could ever serve to enhance the righteous character of God is strictly a human argument. For Jews to reason in this way would have been for them to deny a basic truth they held to be inviolable, namely, that God will judge the world (see Gen. 18:25 and others). If punishment on God’s part implied injustice, then God, who by definition is just, could not serve as the eschatological judge of all humans. In other words, we cannot have it both ways.

Paul then restated the thought of verse 5, this time in the form of another objection (v. 7). The “antagonist” (if indeed there is one) asked, “If my rejection of the truth serves to make the truthfulness of God more apparent and thus increase his glory, then why am I still condemned as a sinner?” In fact, why should we not say, “Let us do evil that good may result” (v. 8)? This is the context in which he states, from a human perspective, about his "lie."

2 Corinthians 12:15-16 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

First, lets post the verse in context not in isolation.

14 Now for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. 15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! 17 Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?


Paul is countering an accusation that he was gaining financially from his ministry. The Corinthians, however, must agree that he has never asked for nor taken any material support from them for himself (1 Cor 9:12 and others). But someone apparently has twisted his actions and concocted a conspiracy theory that Paul had hatched some dark plan to deceive them by profiting from the collection for Jerusalem. They accuse him of being crafty and catching them with guile (see 2 Cor. 4:2). To use financial intermediaries to appear clean by concern for financial matters was not without precedent in the ancient world. Isocrates mocked the hypocrisy of the sophists who did not trust the virtue of their students and insisted that their fees be paid in advance and deposited with a third party. Maybe someone claimed that the collection was all a ruse by which Paul would have associates gather up the money and he would skim a portion off the top without them being any the wiser and without incurring any social debt to them. Verse 16 is not stating that Paul caught them with cunning. The verse is an antiphrasis (irony of one word, like calling a dwarf a giant.

As admitted here:

[FONT="]1 Corinthians 9:19-23 [/FONT][FONT="]"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake"[/FONT]

Nope.

2 Corinthians 11:1-9Paul and the False Apostles

Are you seriously calling Paul a false apostle?

Saul was a Pharisee and a Jew, Paul was the Latin namesake inherited from his father because he was also a Roman citizen.

I know that and that is not what I said. Saul is the name use of Paul prior to his convertion and Paul is the name used after. Saul was the Pharisee that prosecuted the church while Paul is the Christian.

I don't wish this to sound rude either however, if you make a proclamation such as Paul's being a Pharisee has been refuted, it is incumbent on you to show proof to support that proclamation.
Saying that Saul's being a Pharisee has been refuted and then telling people if they want proof of that go look for it, isn't how a discussion regarding claims and counter claims, is carried out.

I was not replying to you but to the person which the argument was made. To ask others to re-post answers to arguments that could have taken several posts is unreasonable.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

James is stating that we do well if fulfill the royal law - "loving your neighbor as yourself".
James is not stating that "loving your neighbor ..." fulfills the Law.

Paul includes speaking truth to one's neighbor....quoting from Zech 8

Zec 8:16
These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;

Eph 4:25
Therefore, putting away lying, 'Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,'
for we are members of one another.


.

 

[ananda]

How on earth could a Pharisee say what Paul said? I thought Pharisees were only hating Jesus, they didn't accept Him, they were keeping the law, making people keep the law and making their own laws, they were greedy. Paul worked himself and he preached grace and Jesus.

I believe this is a commonly held misbelief regarding the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were in fact not Torah/Law observers. The Pharisees substituted their own traditions ("Oral Torah") in place of YHWH's Commandments ("Written Torah"). Mainstream Christians misunderstand the Pharisees' observance of their "Oral Torah" and thus wrongly believe them to be strict followers ofYHWH's Written Torah. The Pharisees believed they were themselves wholly righteous because of their strict observance of Oral Torah, confusing obedience to it with obedience to Written Torah.

We see confirmation in the writings of Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls: the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Written Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Written Torah through their own traditions in Oral Torah. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. We also have additional confirmation of this in Scripture when we see Messiah preaching against the Pharisees (and their associated scribes) on various occasions, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the lawless, liberal Pharisees (Mt 5:20, 2Pet 3:17)!

 

[Hentenza]

Nope it hasn't.

It has. You merely not accepting the evidence is of no consequence.

 

[Frogster]

Why did he try to split the council? Was "the resurrection issue" the reason he was arrested in the first place?

it's called debate, that is why Paul did that, and besides, why quote Luke, i thought it is not inspired, which way ya goinnnn?

 

[Messy]

Well yes, Peter would have every right to because he walked with Jesus and his feet were washed by Jesus. Matthew 10:2-4/John 13:1-17.

The only one that pronounced Paul an apostle was Paul. And his employee on but 2 occasions. No apostle of the living Jesus called him apostle.

And if Paul was not considered to lie in his teachings why would he say he is not lying about his apostleship?

1 Timothy 2:7 (ERV)


7 And I was chosen as an apostle to tell people that message. (I am telling the truth. I am not lying.) I was chosen to teach those who are not Jews to believe and understand the truth.

An apostle is someone sent with a special message or commission.
He didn't say he was an apostle of the Lamb.
Acts 13
Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Peter and the others didn't travel to all those places where Paul came to preach the gospel.

 

[Hentenza]

No, I'm not pushing tradition. I'm preaching adherence to YHWH's Law in determining canon. Instead, Hentenza is pushing his own tradition just as the pharisees were.

lol

1. You have removed a great portion of the scripture and created your own canon. You have created your own Tradition.

2. You have removed Paul as one of the apostles. You have created your own Tradition.

3. You follow the law to obtain salvation. You have created your own Tradition.

I can keep going if you wish.

 

[Frogster]

An apostle is someone sent with a special message or commission.
He didn't say he was an apostle of the Lamb.
Acts 13
Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Peter and the others didn't travel to all those places where Paul came to preach the gospel.

 

[ananda]

Yes and to the liberty of being able to do what's right. That's exactly what Paul preached.

What is "right"? Would you agree that it's the opposite of "wrong"? And that "wrong" = "sin"? And that the definition of "sin" is "transgressing YHWH's Law" (1Jn)?

Thus, the liberty of being able to do what's right is to be free to walk in His Torah.

 

[ananda]

It has. You merely not accepting the evidence is of no consequence.

I deny it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is "right"? Would you agree that it's the opposite of "wrong"? And that "wrong" = "sin"? And that the definition of "sin" is "transgressing YHWH's Law" (1Jn)?

Thus, the liberty of being able to do what's right is to be free to walk in His Torah.

How did Paul transgress and deviate from YAHWEH's law?

.

 

[Frogster]

I believe this is a commonly held misbelief regarding the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were in fact not Torah/Law observers. The Pharisees substituted their own traditions ("Oral Torah") in place of YHWH's Commandments ("Written Torah"). Mainstream Christians misunderstand the Pharisees' observance of their "Oral Torah" and thus wrongly believe them to be strict followers ofYHWH's Written Torah. The Pharisees believed they were themselves wholly righteous because of their strict observance of Oral Torah, confusing obedience to it with obedience to Written Torah.

We see confirmation in the writings of Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls: the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Written Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Written Torah through their own traditions in Oral Torah. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. We also have additional confirmation of this in Scripture when we see Messiah preaching against the Pharisees (and their associated scribes) on various occasions, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the lawless, liberal Pharisees (Mt 5:20, 2Pet 3:17)!

red above..
here are some pharisees that were law observant...


5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

 

[ananda]

lol

1. You have removed a great portion of the scripture and created your own canon. You have created your own Tradition.

2. You have removed Paul as one of the apostles. You have created your own Tradition.

3. You follow the law to obtain salvation. You have created your own Tradition.

I can keep going if you wish.

lol

1. You have followed men who have added a great portion to the Scriptures identified by Messiah, and thus created their own canon. You have followed another's Tradition, and thus, you have your own Tradition.

2. You have added Paul as one of the apostles. You have created your own Tradition.

3. You do not follow YHWH's Torah to obtain salvation. You have created your own Tradition.

I can keep going if you wish.

 

[Hentenza]

I deny it.

It is of no consequence.

 

[Hentenza]

lol

1. You have followed men who have added a great portion to the Scriptures identified by Messiah, and thus created their own canon. You have followed another's Tradition, and thus, you have your own Tradition.

2. You have added Paul as one of the apostles. You have created your own Tradition.

3. You do not follow the Law to obtain salvation. You have created your own Tradition.

I can keep going if you wish.

Well, you are a church of one and an unorthodox church at that. The rest of us mainstream Christians will continue to believe the whole of the word of God not the parts that merely suits our theology as you do. As I said, it is of no consequence.

 

[Frogster]

What is "right"? Would you agree that it's the opposite of "wrong"? And that "wrong" = "sin"? And that the definition of "sin" is "transgressing YHWH's Law" (1Jn)?

Thus, the liberty of being able to do what's right is to be free to walk in His Torah.

torah liberty? really?



jesus said what james said, about a burden..

Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.


James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Plus peter called it a yoke, and so did Paul.

 

[Messy]

I believe this is a commonly held misbelief regarding the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were in fact not Torah/Law observers. The Pharisees substituted their own traditions ("Oral Torah") in place of YHWH's Commandments ("Written Torah"). Mainstream Christians misunderstand the Pharisees' observance of their "Oral Torah" and thus wrongly believe them to be strict followers ofYHWH's Written Torah. The Pharisees believed they were themselves wholly righteous because of their strict observance of Oral Torah, confusing obedience to it with obedience to Written Torah.

We see confirmation in the writings of Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls: the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Written Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Written Torah through their own traditions in Oral Torah. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. We also have additional confirmation of this in Scripture when we see Messiah preaching against the Pharisees (and their associated scribes) on various occasions, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the lawless, liberal Pharisees (Mt 5:20, 2Pet 3:17)!

Okay but
Matthew 23
23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

They had their own tradition, but they also taught the law to people.
The Pharisees forgot those most important ones.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Paul didn't neglect justice and mercy and faith.

Marc 7
For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[d] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Matthew 23:14
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses

Paul didn't do that.
1 Timothy 5
8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

3 Honor widows who are really widows.

 

[Messy]

torah liberty? really?



jesus said what james said, about a burden..

Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.


James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Plus peter called it a yoke, and so did Paul.

But that 'no other burden' was said to the gentiles, if the jews experience it as liberty to do it, who am I to judge them? Go ahead, but I'll stick to this.
For me Torah liberty is being set free to first love the Lord with all your heart and the rest follows from that. That's freedom, the law written in your heart.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

torah liberty? really?

jesus said what james said, about a burden..

Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:

Plus peter called it a yoke, and so did Paul.

But that 'no other burden' was said to the gentiles, if the jews experience it as liberty to do it, who am I to judge them? Go ahead, but I'll stick to this.
For me Torah liberty is being set free to first love the Lord with all your heart and the rest follows from that. That's freedom, the law written in your heart.

Those who live by the yoke, suffer by the yoke

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G2218 matches the Greek ζυγός (zygos), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Deuteronomy 28:48
Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YAHWEH shall send against thee, in hunger and in thirst and in nakedness and in want of all things:
and He shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
[Acts 15:10/Reve 6:5]

Acts 15:10 Now then, why are ye trying GOD, to put a yoke/zugon <2218> upon the neck of the Disciples,
which neither the fathers of us neither are we able to bear?
[Deut 28:48/Reve 6:5]

Reve 6:5 And when it up opens up the third seal, I hear the third living one saying "Be coming'!
And I saw and Behold! A black horse, and the one sitting on him having a yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him..
[Deut 28:18/Acts 15:10]

.

 

[BlunderAngel]

I am surprised this thread hasn't been taken to the UT board by now

But for myself, I am hoping it will stay around on GT for awhile



.

And why is that?