Choose, Chosen or both

[dogs4thewin]

Does God choose us or do we choose Him OR do we choose each other?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

God Chose His Elect.

 

[dogs4thewin]

God Chose His Elect.

niy do the elect not still have to choose Him as well?

 

[iambren]

Easy question. If we are dead in our sins and at enmity with God somebody has to make the move. We can't so He does ie bring us to salvation becoming one of the Elect.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Easy question. If we are dead in our sins and at enmity with God somebody has to make the move. We can't so He does ie bring us to salvation becoming one of the Elect.

How can we not have to accept though?

 

[iambren]

You're into that "irresistible grace" part of the tulip. I guess I could respect a theology where God is seen as removing the depravity of the soul such that they make a freewill decision. That's a stretch though for why would God waste His time on what would fail, Him knowing who would freely reject Him.

This is also leading down the trail to the "prevenient grace" idea, one with no biblical support.

 

[Don Maurer]

The real question behind the question in the OP concerns who is sovereign. Is man sovereign or is God in control. In one theology, man is limited in his ability, in the other, God is limited.

The answer is that we choose according to our nature. When we are unregenerate, we choose to reject Christ and rebel against God (see Ephesians 2:1-5). We are then "by nature children of wrath." God chooses first and changes the nature (1 John 5:1) and then man chooses according to his nature, and he chooses God.

Of course in anti-Calvinist theology, there is an implicit denial of things like original sin and total depravity. In anti-Calvinist theology, man is not the rebel by nature that the scripture speaks of. Man is born, or conceived with this libertarian free will.

Others, as mentioned in a previous post by Iambren, see God as shedding a small amount of grace upon all men everywhere to restore them from original sin and total depravity, and then after that small amount of grace you have to earn salvation by your own righteous decision of faith. Of course as mentioned by a previous poster, where is that in the bible. (no reference given.. : )

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

Moved from "Debate a Calvinist" as it was a question, not a debate topic. Also, non-Calvinist responses were removed.
MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're into that "irresistible grace" part of the tulip.

But Scripture is clear; man can and does resist the Holy Spirit, per Acts 7:51. Of course, some would say that refers only to the sop-called non-elect. OK, fine.

However, Paul gave some commands to believers; to "stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. It would be very difficult to argue that either grieving or quenching the Spirit isn't the same as resisting Him. Of course they are the same. And, so, whether saved or unsaved, the Holy Spirit can and is resisted.

I guess I could respect a theology where God is seen as removing the depravity of the soul such that they make a freewill decision.

Why respect a theology that doesn't line up with the Bible? God didn't have to remove anything for man to freely believe OR reject His promise of eternal life.

God created mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27). As such, man therefore HAS the ability to seek and respond to Him. It would make no sense whatsoever for God to create mankind to seek Him, but leave out any ability to respond to His promises. None.

Further, God has revealed Himself to mankind so that there is no excuse for anyone not to honor Him as Creator and be thankful to Him. Rom 1:19-21.

So, God already HAS made the first move. Then He made the promise, found in 1 Jn 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

People either believe Him or they do not. And their response is freely made.

That's a stretch though for why would God waste His time on what would fail, Him knowing who would freely reject Him.

This is a red herring. Of course God is omniscient and has always known who will and won't believe in Christ. That's not the point. His grace is unlimited, His love is unlimited, His mercy is unlimited. Why? To demonstrate His love for mankind. Whether one believes or not, His love HAS been demonstrated.

Seems many do not understand what unconditional love means. It means to love EVEN when the other one rejects your love. That's what God has done.

So, to bring up the false issue of "why would God bother showing love to those He knows won't respond" is a waste of time and ignores the meaning of unconditional love.

This is also leading down the trail to the "prevenient grace" idea, one with no biblical support.

Correct. I always get suspicious when people add adjectives to Biblical words and then try to peddle the phrase as something out of the Bible. The reformed are notorious for that.

 

[Hammster]

But Scripture is clear; man can and does resist the Holy Spirit, per Acts 7:51. Of course, some would say that refers only to the sop-called non-elect. OK, fine.

However, Paul gave some commands to believers; to "stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. It would be very difficult to argue that either grieving or quenching the Spirit isn't the same as resisting Him. Of course they are the same. And, so, whether saved or unsaved, the Holy Spirit can and is resisted.


Why respect a theology that doesn't line up with the Bible? God didn't have to remove anything for man to freely believe OR reject His promise of eternal life.

God created mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27). As such, man therefore HAS the ability to seek and respond to Him. It would make no sense whatsoever for God to create mankind to seek Him, but leave out any ability to respond to His promises. None.

Further, God has revealed Himself to mankind so that there is no excuse for anyone not to honor Him as Creator and be thankful to Him. Rom 1:19-21.

So, God already HAS made the first move. Then He made the promise, found in 1 Jn 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

People either believe Him or they do not. And their response is freely made.


This is a red herring. Of course God is omniscient and has always known who will and won't believe in Christ. That's not the point. His grace is unlimited, His love is unlimited, His mercy is unlimited. Why? To demonstrate His love for mankind. Whether one believes or not, His love HAS been demonstrated.

Seems many do not understand what unconditional love means. It means to love EVEN when the other one rejects your love. That's what God has done.

So, to bring up the false issue of "why would God bother showing love to those He knows won't respond" is a waste of time and ignores the meaning of unconditional love.


Correct. I always get suspicious when people add adjectives to Biblical words and then try to peddle the phrase as something out of the Bible. The reformed are notorious for that.

Please see the mod hat.

 

[Skala]

Does God choose us or do we choose Him OR do we choose each other?

We choose him because he chooses us. One is the cart, the other is the horse. Both the horse and the cart are moving, but one is pulling the other.

 

[Foghorn]

Does God choose us or do we choose Him OR do we choose each other?

According to scripture, God chose us (the elect) before the foundation of the world.

We do not choose God.

 

[Foghorn]

niy do the elect not still have to choose Him as well?

when the elect is regenerated through the gospel by the spirit, he finds himself believing, therefore, belief (faith)come with regeneration, faith is a fruit of the spirit.

 

[Foghorn]

This is also leading down the trail to the "prevenient grace" idea, one with no biblical support.

I agree.

 

[iambren]

"However, Paul gave some commands to believers; to "stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. It would be very difficult to argue that either grieving or quenching the Spirit isn't the same as resisting Him. Of course they are the same. And, so, whether saved or unsaved, the Holy Spirit can and is resisted."


Ok,now we are getting to the "P" part of the tulip.

 

[St_Worm2]

"As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48 - a very remarkable statement, which cannot, without force, be interpreted of anything lower than this, that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man’s believing. Commentary on the Whole Bible by Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown