Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[FreeGrace2]

Let me post what God said. Again.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:14, 15 HCSB)

I'm sure you somehow think this quote gets y'all off the hook, or something, but it does not.

How can you miss so badly the FACT that God's perfect JUSTICE gives no one an excuse for their eternal destiny? And Scripture teaches that no one has any excuse. But I've shown the excuse that is provided by Calvinism, in that Christ died only for the elect and only the elect go to heaven.

That, in and of itself, is an excuse. Why that FACT isn't getting through to the bunch of y'all is very troubling indeed.

You have a cherry picking theology but won't admit it. You admit to election, but when I point out that election determines where one spends eternity, y'all don't like it and get all stirred up.

Good grief!

 

[Hammster]

I'm sure you somehow think this quote gets y'all off the hook, or something, but it does not.

How can you miss so badly the FACT that God's perfect JUSTICE gives no one an excuse for their eternal destiny? And Scripture teaches that no one has any excuse. But I've shown the excuse that is provided by Calvinism, in that Christ died only for the elect and only the elect go to heaven.

That, in and of itself, is an excuse. Why that FACT isn't getting through to the bunch of y'all is very troubling indeed.

You have a cherry picking theology but won't admit it. You admit to election, but when I point out that election determines where one spends eternity, y'all don't like it and get all stirred up.

Good grief!

One more time. This isn't Calvinism. It's what God said.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:14, 15 HCSB)

Notice that there's no injustice. So yes, there is perfect justice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One more time. This isn't Calvinism. It's what God said.

I know what God said. Seem you don't know what the Bible says, though.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:14, 15 HCSB)

Notice that there's no injustice. So yes, there is perfect justice.

But Calvinism, NOT the Bible, provides an excuse for the hell dwellers. I do not know why that simple but clear fact isn't getting through. I really don't.

 

[nobdysfool]

Of what benefit is that so-called "excuse"? Will you answer the question?

What would having that excuse do for hell-dwellers (your term)?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of what benefit is that so-called "excuse"? Will you answer the question?

I have answered it. And I will again, just for you.

What would having that excuse do for hell-dwellers (your term)?

Your question reveals a kind of "so what?" attitude about Calvinism providing an excuse for the hell dwellers. (you don't like my "term"?)

So, that attitude basically acquiesces to the fact that you can't deny that Calvinism DOES provide an excuse for those in hell. They just weren't chosen to inhabit heaven, as the elect were.

Now, in reality, there is no excuse from Scripture for anything. That is the point. And it answers your question.

But Calvinism, admittedly or unadmittedly, gives an excuse by their own theology for those in hell. And sin isn't the reason, because the elect are just as much sinners, and some even more than many of the non-elect.

So y'all can just quit hiding behind "sin" as a reason. It just ain't!!!!!

 

[nobdysfool]

I have answered it. And I will again, just for you.

No, you haven't.

Your question reveals a kind of "so what?" attitude about Calvinism providing an excuse for the hell dwellers. (you don't like my "term"?)

No, it's not a "so what" attitude. For the sake of explanation, I am asking the question. You're real good at reading all sorts of motives into what others say, and howl like a banshee if anyone does so to you.

So, that attitude basically acquiesces to the fact that you can't deny that Calvinism DOES provide an excuse for those in hell. They just weren't chosen to inhabit heaven, as the elect were.

No, there you go again, trying to do a victory dance and totally missing the point of the question.

Now, in reality, there is no excuse from Scripture for anything. That is the point. And it answers your question.

It does not answer my question about why you seem to think that having an excuse is of benefit to the hell-dwellers.

But Calvinism, admittedly or unadmittedly, gives an excuse by their own theology for those in hell. And sin isn't the reason, because the elect are just as much sinners, and some even more than many of the non-elect.

How many times must we say it? Sin is the reason people are in hell. Apparently not in your theology, but your theology is not the standard of measure by which all others are measured, despite your attitude that it is.

So y'all can just quit hiding behind "sin" as a reason. It just ain't!!!!!

Sez you. Your name ain't Jesus, so your word is not final.

And you have still avoided answering my question. As I expected.

One more time: Of what benefit will such an excuse be to the hell-dwellers? What will it do for them?

If you can't answer that question, it shows that it was never a valid argument, it was only a bludgeon for you to use to beat on Calvinists. And it failed miserably.

It's sad that you can't stop beating that horse. It's dead, Jim!

 

[Hammster]

I know what God said. Seem you don't know what the Bible says, though.


But Calvinism, NOT the Bible, provides an excuse for the hell dwellers. I do not know why that simple but clear fact isn't getting through. I really don't.

Once again...God.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. (Romans 9:14-18 HCSB)

In other words, God chooses who He wants to choose, and doesn't choose who He wants to not choose. That's not Calvinism. That's God. Now if you want to say that God gives them an excuse, just read further.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you think shouting is beneficial for you or anyone else?

No, you haven't.

We'll see about that.

No, it's not a "so what" attitude. For the sake of explanation, I am asking the question. You're real good at reading all sorts of motives into what others say, and howl like a banshee if anyone does so to you.

In FACT, I pointed out your question exudes a "so what" attitude. Whether or not you even understand that FACT. But I digress.

[QIUOTE]It does not answer my question about why you seem to think that having an excuse is of benefit to the hell-dwellers.[/QUOTE]
Where did I EVER say there way any benefit to hell dwellers? I didn't. Why are you just making up "stuff"?

How many times must we say it? Sin is the reason people are in hell.

Doesn't matter how many times. They are ALL wrong. Why? Because EVEN the elect are sinners, yet Christ died ONLY for them, they were the ONLY ones chosen by God to live in heaven. Do I need to keep going on?

So, sin cannot be any reason whatsoever. Very sad that this FACT isn't getting through to you or your friends. But it is a fact.

Apparently not in your theology, but your theology is not the standard of measure by which all others are measured, despite your attitude that it is.

My view is directly guided by Scripture, and Scripture teaches that no one has any excuse. But Calvinism directly provides an excuse.

And you have still avoided answering my question. As I expected.

One more time: Of what benefit will such an excuse be to the hell-dwellers? What will it do for them?

If you can't answer that question, it shows that it was never a valid argument, it was only a bludgeon for you to use to beat on Calvinists. And it failed miserably.

I'm real tired of your false accusations. In my post, which you are shouting about, I TOLD you the answer to your question, after I pointed out that your question exuded a "so what" kind of attitude about providing an excuse.

Here is what I said, and you "conveniently" ignored, in order to make your false claim:

Now, in reality, there is no excuse from Scripture for anything. That is the point. And it answers your question.

Maybe you just aren't connecting the dots here. Apparently.

My point is that Calvinism's doctrine of limited atonement and election provide an excuse for those in hell. Simple as that. The elect are just as rotten sinners as the non-elect, and some even more rotten, but their sins were paid for, and they were chosen for heaven. That, sir, IS an excuse for the hell dwellers.

It's sad that you can't stop beating that horse. It's dead, Jim!

The "dead horse" here is the theology that you guys keep pushing and aren't even aware of what it leads to; an excuse for hell dwellers.

Pitiful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In other words, God chooses who He wants to choose, and doesn't choose who He wants to not choose.

BINGO!! And it's your system, not the Bible, that claims that God's choice is for no apparent reason. You won't admit it, but His choice must be just some kind of random spin the bottle or whatever. You know that those in heaven are NO BETTER than any in hell. So, again, sin cannot be the reason they are in hell.

The ONLY difference in YOUR system is who God chose.

That's not Calvinism. That's God.

You think so, I understand. And you are wrong. God chooses to save those who believe, something that seems not to be getting through to you.

Calvinism claims God's choice for salvation is not based on any condition. False. Paul's answer to the jailer puts that false doctrine to rest. One must believe to be saved.

[QUTOE] Now if you want to say that God gives them an excuse, just read further.[/QUOTE]
Rom 1:19-20 SAYS that no one has an excuse. So I certainly WON'T say that God gives anyone an excuse.

It's Calvinism that provides the excuse. By your unbiblical doctrines of limited atonement and election.

 

[Hammster]

BINGO!! And it's your system, not the Bible, that claims that God's choice is for no apparent reason. You won't admit it, but His choice must be just some kind of random spin the bottle or whatever. You know that those in heaven are NO BETTER than any in hell. So, again, sin cannot be the reason they are in hell.

Where did I say He chooses for no apparent reason? I'm quoting text and exegeting it. If you have a different exegesis, let's hear it.

The ONLY difference in YOUR system is who God chose.

Well, that's what Romans 9 says.

You think so, I understand. And you are wrong. God chooses to save those who believe, something that seems not to be getting through to you.

Once again

For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:15 HCSB)

Calvinism claims God's choice for salvation is not based on any condition. False. Paul's answer to the jailer puts that false doctrine to rest. One must believe to be saved.

Yes. And? Justification is by faith. Regeneration is God's choice. He's merciful to whom He shows mercy.

Rom 1:19-20 SAYS that no one has an excuse. So I certainly WON'T say that God gives anyone an excuse.

I agree. And that's what we are saying, too.

It's Calvinism that provides the excuse. By your unbiblical doctrines of limited atonement and election.

This is what Calvinism teaches.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? ” But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory — on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24 HCSB)

 

[nobdysfool]

Never mind. Not worth it.

 

[crimsonleaf]

nm.

 

[Metal Minister]

You think so, I understand. And you are wrong. God chooses to save those who believe, something that seems not to be getting through to you.

So in your theology, man chooses God, then God chooses man. You understand this flies in the face if God's omniscience correct?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where did I say He chooses for no apparent reason? I'm quoting text and exegeting it. If you have a different exegesis, let's hear it.

Really? The fact that no Calvinist can give any reasonable answer as to WHY, in your system, God chooses people, means that it must be for no apparent reason. Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul.

Of course there is ALWAYS a reason for God's choices. He doesn't make random, arbitrary choices. But Calvinism just can't come up with an answer.

But the Bible already has. Each and every of the 6 elections is based on a purpose. And that purpose is for special privilege and service. And none of them were for salvation.

And, yes, God does choose (not elect) people for salvation. It is through belief in the truth, which fits perfectly with Rom 1:16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where did I say He chooses for no apparent reason? I'm quoting text and exegeting it. If you have a different exegesis, let's hear it.

Really? The fact that no Calvinist can give any reasonable answer as to WHY, in your system, God chooses people, means that it must be for no apparent reason. Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul.

Of course there is ALWAYS a reason for God's choices. He doesn't make random, arbitrary choices. But Calvinism just can't come up with an answer.

But the Bible already has. Each and every of the 6 elections is based on a purpose. And that purpose is for special privilege and service. And none of them were for salvation.

And, yes, God does choose (not elect) people for salvation. It is through belief in the truth, which fits perfectly with Rom 1:16.

 

[Hammster]

Really? The fact that no Calvinist can give any reasonable answer as to WHY, in your system, God chooses people, means that it must be for no apparent reason. Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul.

Of course there is ALWAYS a reason for God's choices. He doesn't make random, arbitrary choices. But Calvinism just can't come up with an answer.

But the Bible already has. Each and every of the 6 elections is based on a purpose. And that purpose is for special privilege and service. And none of them were for salvation.

And, yes, God does choose (not elect) people for salvation. It is through belief in the truth, which fits perfectly with Rom 1:16.

For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:15 HCSB)

I don't know why you are avoiding this text.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ididn't shout.

Capitalizing entire sentences and posts IS shouting. Everyone knows that.

I bolded the same font as the rest of the post.

Bolding isn't the issue. Capitalizing entire sentences IS the issue.

However in a previous post of yours, you DID "shout" with a much larger font.[/QUOTE]
I bold and cap single words or phrases for emphasis.

Don't throw stones if you don't want them thrown back.
Oh, so you admit your vindictive side, huh. Is that a Christian virtue? Back to the issue, I recommend you learn the rules of computer etiquette.

I told you that you were wrong about that. Your assessment is wrong. Do you understand that? You say that only to diminish and devalue, to justify the disdain with which you treat me and other Calvinists.

I invite you to show me any post where I've done that to you or any other Calvinist.

If I truly had a "so what" attitude about it, I wouldn't even waste my time posting to ask the question I have asked and you have avoided answering directly. Take your false accusation and put it in a dark place, right behind you.

Would this be a fair example of what you mean by "diminish, devalue, distain"? Can you be more specific about this "dark place" that you speak of? Just for clarity.

It is implicit in the claim. Why else would one look for an excuse, unless there were some benefit to be had from having one?

The real benefit is in showing that Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers.

I'm not making anything up. You are the one insisting that there is an excuse.

In your system, there sure is an excuse. You just don't want to admit it.

My question is a legitimate question, given the seemingly great importance that you have placed on repeatedly bludgeoning Calvinists about it.

I've answered it twice. And as for "bludgeoning" y'all, it appears that my charge has gotten under your skin. And none of y'all have refuted it. You can deny it all you want. So what? Denial proves nothing. You can't refute it.

Look we know what you want to believe is true. Why can't you accept that we disagree with your stated belief?

I HAVE accepted that you disagree. And for no apparent reason.

You have absolutely no right to come in here and demand that we must all believe as you do.

I invite you to show me any post where I have DEMANDED anything from anyone. Please.

It's rude, it's unscriptural, and it is just carnal.

In fact, your charge is a lie, plain and simple. Seems yer getting all emotional and all about this. The fact that you can't refute my charge does bug you.

All men are sinners, by birth and by nature. Dead in sins. Those whom God saves, He makes alive, forgives their sins, so their standing before Him is as if they had never sinned.

Absolutely right. But in YOUR system, God chooses arbitrarily, without any conditions. But the Bible teaches that man is accountable and responsible, and that means for accepting or rejecting the free gift of eternal life.

[QUTOE] Those He does not save ae left in their sins, and are sent to hell FOR THEIR SINS.[/QUOTE]
Which is an excuse, because in YOUR system, God chose other sinners for heaven without apparent reason. You just can't get away from that fact.

[QUTOE] They are not forgiven.[/QUOTE]
Forgiveness is based on faith in Christ. Acts 10:43

They still will give account for what they have done, and there will be no excuses.

You are apparently blind to the obvious. There are sinners in heaven who have been far worse than many of the sinners in hell. So don't give me that "sin" nonsense. ALL MEN are sinners. But in YOUR sytem, God cherry picks ONLY some sinners for heaven, and that means He cherry picked the rest for hell.

Calvinism does not give them any excuse.

I've proven otherwise. You just don't want to admit it.

They will not be judged by Calvinism, so there will be no excuse.

Who said anything about being judged by Calvinism? Where did that come from? Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers: "God didn't choose me, Christ didn't die for me. I wasn't lucky enough to be chosen."

Thus your entire tirade is completely and utterly without merit, false, and a red herring that stinks to high heaven.

Would this be another pristine example of "disdain, diminish, and devalue"?

No, what you consider a fact is only so to you, because we see the scriptures teaching that people are cast into hell because of sin.

What you claim to "see" isn't in Scripture. Which is a large part of your problem.

That's what we believe.

Got it.

You believe differently. Fine. Do so!

I believe what the Bible teaches. And thank you for your permission.

But do not demand that we conform to your theology.

I invite you to show me any post where I've demanded anything from anyone. Please.

You want to see shouting?

This is shouting!

Can you see the difference?

You are so childish. Do you see the difference?

I connected the dots a long time ago. This is nothing but a bludgeon with which to bash Calvinism and by extension, Calvinists. In my opinion, you're not interested in learning anything, discussing anything. You only want to dominate the discussion, and bash Calvinists in the process.

I suggest that you "get a grip", please. And apparently you do not understand the concept of the folder called "Debate a Calvinist" on this forum. I recommend you get some guidance counselling so that you can understand the purpose of what a "debate" actually is.

And what does that excuse do for them? What does it get them?

The whole point is that Calvinism provides the excuse from its theology. There is no benefit for hell dwellers. But the Bible teaches that they have no excuse, because they are accountable and responsible for acdepting or rejecting the free gift of eternal life.

In what way are they better off for having that excuse? That is the question you won't, or can't answer. And it needs to be answered, to have any chance at credibility in your claim.

OK, please send your gaze upward to what I just posted. You have been answered. Got it?

Of what use is an excuse that will not change anything? Absolutely nothing! A useless excuse is no excuse. Therefore, this entire line of "reasoning" is shown to be worth nothing, producing nothing, and is a colossal waste of time.

I recommend that you cease posting to me. It doesn't appear to be productive for you at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In some ways I'm sorry to be the first to crack and say it out loud, but you are singularly the most unpleasant, self-righteous, smug, insulting poster I've had the displeasure to come across.

I invite you to show me any post that will actually back up your charge here. Please.

Your fake hillbilly redneck dialogue is unnecessary and grates; it's not charming, quaint or endearing, it's stupid.

Hm. Are you guys the only ones that are allowed sarcasm. Your opinion has been filed. Thank you.

You've proven you can write English most of the time, so it's obviously a sad affliction. Y'all.

Actually, it's much quicker to type "y'all" than "you guys" or "all of you Calvinists", or phrases like that. Sorry it offends you and the rest.

You have accused us of squirming, whining and squealing, we wont see your "FACTS", you continually stick to the same trope about "excuses" despite the fact it flies in the face of logic.

Where is the proof of your claim? I've seen nothing but strong reaction to my charge, which I fully expected. But where is the actual refutation? Claims are not refutations.

Your idea of debate is to repeat, repeat, repeat until your opponent decides he's had enough of banging his head against the metaphorical brick wall which you are.

When you keep (repeat, repeat, repeat) giving erroneous answers, I have to keep repeating the truth. Calvinism DOES provide an excuse for hell dwellers, in that :
#1 Christ didn't die for them. THAT is an excuse.
#2 God didn't choose them for heaven. THAT is an excuse.

The Bible teaches that God chooses to save believers. Nothing about unconditional choice of who to save, as Calvinism claims.

Now, can you refute that? I [/U][/B]invite[/U][/B] you to.

I'll either get a warning or a ban for this but frankly I'm prepared to concede that it will be worth it. I surrender to the mods and throw myself on their mercy, because if they have any sense of justice they'll read the threads you've been involved in and decide for themselves what an obnoxious individual you are.

That's what they are there for.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Really? The fact that no Calvinist can give any reasonable answer as to WHY, in your system, God chooses people, means that it must be for no apparent reason. Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul.

Of course there is ALWAYS a reason for God's choices. He doesn't make random, arbitrary choices. But Calvinism just can't come up with an answer.

But the Bible already has. Each and every of the 6 elections is based on a purpose. And that purpose is for special privilege and service. And none of them were for salvation.

And, yes, God does choose (not elect) people for salvation. It is through belief in the truth, which fits perfectly with Rom 1:16.

You seem to think that "no apparent reason" means "no reason". How do you reach that conclusion? And please stop intimating that Calvinists think they're regarded as "speshul" over and above other saved souls. You've denied that you do it, yet here it is in black and white: "Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul."

 

[FreeGrace2]

So in your theology, man chooses God, then God chooses man. You understand this flies in the face if God's omniscience correct?

Nope. Here is my theology, based entirely on Scripture.

God created man, Adam, who sinned and corrupted mankind. This means that man is not able to solve the sin problem by himself, nor save himself.

God also created mankind, from Adam, to seek Him. Acts 17:26-27

God also revealed His divine power and attributes to mankind so that no one has any excuse. Rom 1:19-20

God provided in grace the solution to the sin problem by the sacrifice of His Son, to pay the penalty of sin for the sins of the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2

By paying the sin penalty, Christ purchased (agorazo) the gift of eternal life for everyone. Heb 9:12

God's will is to give the free gift of eternal life for all who believe. Jn 6:40

God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

That, in a nutshell, is my theology. It is clear from this that God has always made the first move, NOT that man moves first, and God second, as Calvinism loves to charge non Calvinists.

So, can you refute any of my theology? Please.