Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[AndOne]

Actually the apostle Paul wins...

 

[nobdysfool]

Another very common sidestepping smokescreen from one who can't answe my questions. And because of this extremely judgmental snark, there is no reason to continue to respond to you.

I DID answer your questions. I guess you didn't like my responses. C'est la vie... Thanks for proving my point.

When you decide to have a real conversation, then post a question, if you have one. Til then...

Don't hold your breath....

 

[crimsonleaf]

A snide comment, huh.

Show me where I'm being unfair. Give me a single point you've conceded. I rest my case.

Neither the elect sinners nor the non-elect sinners are forced to sin. Irrelevant, though.

I'll decide whether questions I ask are relevant.

Correct, and irrelevant.

Relevant.

I've never given a long post. I have answered long posts from Calvinists who post long ones. There's a difference. I hope that you will notice.

I've noticed that both the answers you gave above were longer than the single word I asked for... It would be nice if you could answer a question without a commentary. What was it you said in a previous post..? Oh yes:

All I was looking for was either of 2 short words: yes or no. When I see an "explanation", I know that the poster is just waffling in their answer.

You see my point then.

btw, can you answer these questions?

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

These are relevant questions to ask. The answers are telling.

Yes I can.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You acknowledge that you understand that Calvinists believe that people are in hell because of sin.

I haven't acknowledged anything of the sort. My comments were in reference to my 6 questions. In fact, the ONLY difference between those in heaven and those in hell is the FACT that Christ didn't die for those in hell. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE.

Unless you want to clear up here and now just what is intrinsically different between the sinners in heaven and the sinners in hell, if not the FACT that Christ died ONLY for those in heaven, per Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Show me where I'm being unfair. Give me a single point you've conceded. I rest my case.

You're free to rest whatever you want to rest. As for your "claim" and request, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Your response was to this: "A snide comment, huh". So, whatever your issue is, you need to clarify.

I'll decide whether questions I ask are relevant.

You have every right. But the one who receives your question has just as much right.

Still, the fact that the non-elect are not forced to sin IS irrelevant to my point. The same holds true for the elect and their sins. So what? What's the ONLY difference? Christ die for ALL in heaven and NONE in hell. Why is that so hard to accept?

I've noticed that both the answers you gave above were longer than the single word I asked for... It would be nice if you could answer a question without a commentary. What was it you said in a previous post..? Oh yes:

[QOUTE]Yes I can.

If you can, why didn't you? How hard is it to type either "yes" or "no"?

So, to help you, here they are again:

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

 

[nobdysfool]

Of what benefit would an "excuse" be to those in hell?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of what benefit would an "excuse" be to those in hell?

A better question: of what benefit would an excuse be for anyone? It would remove responsibility and accountability from them.

You are still bothered by my charge. You either agree with it or you don't. But your question here suggests that even if you are wrong, what "good" is an excuse. At least you're starting to think a bit deeper on the subject.

If you don't think Calvinism gives an excuse to the hell dwellers, show me why not. And saying "sin" doesn't get you off the hook, because those in heaven are just as bad sinners as those in hell. And some are worse sinners than some in hell. So "sin" doesn't cut it.

Your claims show that ONLY those for whom Christ died and were chosen go to heaven. That in itself is an excuse for those not there.

Now, either you're fine with giving the hell dwellers an excuse, or you need to prove that they don't have one. And remember; since those in heaven are also sinners, sin isn't the reason they are there.

They are there for NO OTHER REASON than they weren't chosen, and Christ didn't die for them. Period.

 

[nobdysfool]

A better question: of what benefit would an excuse be for anyone? It would remove responsibility and accountability from them.

And in this scenario, what would that do? Cause God to release them from hell? I don't see that as a possibility.

Excuses don't cut it. An excuse is an attempt to avoid responsibility. It doesn't remove responsibility. it is an attempt to deflect. As such it is not valid.

You are still bothered by my charge. You either agree with it or you don't. But your question here suggests that even if you are wrong, what "good" is an excuse. At least you're starting to think a bit deeper on the subject.

I will thank you to refrain from attempting to make definitive statements about me which you have absolutely zero chance of knowing. I do not agree with your "excuse" trope. I think it's ludicrous and ridiculous. I'm simply trying to find out why you seem to think that it is some big thing that is supposed to stop Calvinists dead in their tracks. You trot this out, and make a big deal about it, strutting and posturing about how you have the Calvinists all tied up in knots, when the reality is, we're all scratching our heads and asking ourselves, "what is he going on about?"

The implication is that somehow having that excuse makes them innocent, and unjustly condemned. I've said it before, but this is very comparable to what you would hear in most prisons, that the inmates are all "innocent", if you ask them. Yet they are incarcerated, because the Justice system has determined them to be guilty based on the evidence. The same is true for those in hell. They may protest their innocence, and how they were sent there unfairly, but that doesn't mean that they are right. The Judge says they are guilty, based on the evidence. What evidence? Their rejection of Christ, and lifetime of sin. Excuse? They have none!

If you don't think Calvinism gives an excuse to the hell dwellers, show me why not. And saying "sin" doesn't get you off the hook, because those in heaven are just as bad sinners as those in hell. And some are worse sinners than some in hell. So "sin" doesn't cut it.

Sin is the central issue. Hell was made for Satan and his angels, who sinned. All humans whose names are not found written in the Book of Life, will be cast into Hell as well, for their sins.

Your claims show that ONLY those for whom Christ died and were chosen go to heaven. That in itself is an excuse for those not there.

In choosing to save some via His mercy, He does not do any Injustice to those He doesn't save. All justly deserve Hell. Choosing to save any is totally God's prerogative, it's His Creation, and He can do as seems good to Him. And since being God, He is incapable of doing wrong, what He does, is by definition, Right, Just and Good. Otherwise, logically you are left with Abraxas, the god who is both evil and good, depending on his whims of the moment. I would hope that you know that there is no such being.

Now, either you're fine with giving the hell dwellers an excuse, or you need to prove that they don't have one. And remember; since those in heaven are also sinners, sin isn't the reason they are there.

The reason that sinners are in heaven is that their sins have been forgiven, because they trusted in Christ. They have been saved by the Grace of God. The sinners in hell are ther because their sins have NOT been forgiven, because they did NOT trust in Christ, and were NOT saved, by the Grace of God. So they are in hell because of their sins.

They are there for NO OTHER REASON than they weren't chosen, and Christ didn't die for them. Period.

It really bothers you that God does as He wills, and does so even if you don't like it. You don't have to like it. But you do have to accept that this is the way it is, otherwise, you are in opposition, not to Calvinists, but to God. That's not a good place to be.....

 

[Hammster]

I haven't acknowledged anything of the sort. My comments were in reference to my 6 questions. In fact, the ONLY difference between those in heaven and those in hell is the FACT that Christ didn't die for those in hell. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE.

Unless you want to clear up here and now just what is intrinsically different between the sinners in heaven and the sinners in hell, if not the FACT that Christ died ONLY for those in heaven, per Calvinism.

I asked "Can you understand that this is what we believe?"

You answered, "If I didn't understand what you believe, how could I have come up with those 6 questions that all demand a "yes" answer?"

So either you understand that Calvinists believe that people are in hell because of sin, or you don't. Which is it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked "Can you understand that this is what we believe?"

You answered, "If I didn't understand what you believe, how could I have come up with those 6 questions that all demand a "yes" answer?"

Seems yer not following too closely, there. My 6 questions correctly stated what Calvinists believe. So, obviously, I understand what you believe. In fact, I used those 6 questions to demonstrate that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers.

So either you understand that Calvinists believe that people are in hell because of sin, or you don't. Which is it?

I understand that you keep saying and believe that, but my 6 questions demonstrate quite clearly that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers.

Besides the FACT that those in heaven were chosen for heaven AND Christ died for their sins, what is different between elect and non-elect? Besides the temp.

 

[Hammster]

We believe that people are in hell because they are sinners.

"No, you don't."

 

[FreeGrace2]

We believe that people are in hell because they are sinners.

"No, you don't."

Uh, yes, you do believe that. I've never said that you don't believe that.

I disagree with you, but I do know that you believe that, and all without any proof.

 

[crimsonleaf]

If you can, why didn't you? How hard is it to type either "yes" or "no"?

So, to help you, here they are again:

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

You didn't ask me if I would, you asked me if I can. Do I need to explain the difference to you? So, to be clear, I can answer them.

 

[Hammster]

Uh, yes, you do believe that. I've never said that you don't believe that.

I disagree with you, but I do know that you believe that, and all without any proof.

Your agree
Your agreement or disagreement is of no matter. Your OP said that Calvinism provides an excuse for those in Hell. Calvinism says people are in Hell because of sin. You agree that's what Calvinism teaches. So your OP has been proven false.

Now, you disagree with Calvinism, and believe that out view of the doctrine of Hell is incorrect. And you are unable to comprehend why we believe what we believe. But that's a different matter.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't ask me if I would, you asked me if I can. Do I need to explain the difference to you? So, to be clear, I can answer them.

Why do you bother wasting your time with this "stuff"? If you are able to answer the 6 simple questions, go ahead and answer them.

If you are just stalling for some time in order to try to figure out how not to get trapped by these 6 very easy and simple questions, then, by all means, take your time.

Here they are again, just for you.

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your OP said that Calvinism provides an excuse for those in Hell.

Yes, it does. I proved that, and you concurred by your 6 answers to my 6 questions. Which is that the only difference between heaven and hell dwellers is that Christ died for ONLY the heaven dwellers. The ONLY difference.

Calvinism says people are in Hell because of sin.[/QUTOE]
And they AREN'T, but I understand that is what Calvinism thinks.

You agree that's what Calvinism teaches. So your OP has been proven false.

You are quite confused, sir. I never said that I agree with what Calvinism teaches. So my OP has NOT been refuted.

Now, you disagree with Calvinism, and believe that out view of the doctrine of Hell is incorrect.

I've always said that. Just go back and review the 2,000+ posts in my thread "Jesus Christ died for everyone" where all you campers bombarded me with questions that were all over the theological grid. Not complaining, but just sayin'. I've been clear AND consistent throughout.

If you think I haven't been, go ahead and find the posts where I am inconsistent or contradictory. I invite to do that.

And you are unable to comprehend why we believe what we believe. But that's a different matter.

Phony claim. I have always comprehended your unbiblical view. Always.

Can you find any posts where I've shown any so-called "incomprehensioin" of your view? I invite you to do that.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it does. I proved that, and you concurred by your 6 answers to my 6 questions. Which is that the only difference between heaven and hell dwellers is that Christ died for ONLY the heaven dwellers. The ONLY difference.

And that's not relevant as to why they are in hell. That's only relevant as to why they are in heaven. That's what Calvinists believe. You may disagree with it, but you cannot say that it's not what Calvinism teaches.

And they AREN'T, but I understand that is what Calvinism thinks.

What you believe about hell isn't relevant in this thread. It's what Calvinism teaches that's relevant. And you cannot say that it isn't what Calvinism teaches. So it's false to say that it is.

You are quite confused, sir. I never said that I agree with what Calvinism teaches. So my OP has NOT been refuted.

You are quite confused. I never said that you agree with what Calvinism teaches. Try reading what I actually said.

I've always said that. Just go back and review the 2,000+ posts in my thread "Jesus Christ died for everyone" where all you campers bombarded me with questions that were all over the theological grid. Not complaining, but just sayin'. I've been clear AND consistent throughout.

If you think I haven't been, go ahead and find the posts where I am inconsistent or contradictory. I invite to do that.

Yes you have. I didn't say otherwise. Try responding to what I'm actually saying.

Phony claim. I have always comprehended your unbiblical view. Always.

Can you find any posts where I've shown any so-called "incomprehensioin" of your view? I invite you to do that.

Sure thing. This OP. You are claiming that Calvinism teaches something that it doesn't. You can't show anywhere in Calvinism that it's taught that people are in hell because they aren't elect. That's not what earns them hell. It's there sin. I know you believe differently, but it is what Calvinism teaches. Stop with the bogus accusation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And that's not relevant as to why they are in hell. That's only relevant as to why they are in heaven. That's what Calvinists believe. You may disagree with it, but you cannot say that it's not what Calvinism teaches.

First, the FACT that the only difference between elect and non-elect is that Christ died for the elect and they were chosen FOR heaven as opposed to the non-elect IS VERY RELEVANT. It's just that Calvinists don't want to admit it, for some reason.

Second, I've never said anything about what Calvinism doesn't teach.

What you believe about hell isn't relevant in this thread.

Wrong, it's my thread and the subject related to hell dwellers. It's in the OP.

It's what Calvinism teaches that's relevant. And you cannot say that it isn't what Calvinism teaches. So it's false to say that it is.

Oh, I see you confusion. You think I have claimed that Calvinism "teaches" that hell dwellers have an excuse. No, I said that Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers. It's a big difference.

Sure thing. This OP. You are claiming that Calvinism teaches something that it doesn't.

Please show me any post where I've "claimed that Calvinism teaches" something that it doesn't. That would be a good one. I invite you to do that.

You can't show anywhere in Calvinism that it's taught that people are in hell because they aren't elect.

Oh, is that what you are going on about? Where did I claim that's what Calvinism teaches. That IS what Calvinism concludes, though, right? I mean, non of y'all will admit it, but just look at the 6 simple FACTS that I phrased into questions. It's all there.

Who's in heaven? The elect.

who's in hell? The non-elect.

Disagree or agree?

That's not what earns them hell.

Scuze me, but no earns anything. Poor choice of words.

It's there sin. I know you believe differently, but it is what Calvinism teaches. Stop with the bogus accusation.

How about proving that the non-elect are there because of sin? Can or will you do that?

Regardless of what you protest, Calvinism PROVIDES hell dwellers with an excuse for being there.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism believes that Christ died only for some, they call the "elect", and that is because God chose (elected) them for salvation. As such, all the elect receive the free gift of eternal life and will live with God for eternity.

So far, so good.

This gives those in hell an excuse for being there; that Christ did not die for them. Calvinists say that they are there because of their sins.

Only if they are there for something other than sin.

But that begs the question: Christ died for the sins of ONLY the elect, and therefore, go to heaven. The so-called non-elect, for whom Christ didn't die, pay for their sins by themselves.

So what's the question?

And those who go to heaven still sinned, but Christ paid for their sins. They are in heaven BECAUSE Christ paid for their sins.

Thats what I've been saying. Election is about who goes to heaven. Hell is the default.

The only difference between sinner human beings in heaven and sinner human beings in hell is that Christ paid for the sins of those in heaven. Again, that provides an excuse for all in hell. No one paid for their sins.

And here's where you fail. You have yet to demonstrate why this is an excuse.

It is possible for a Calvinist to provide a succinct explanation of how their theology of limited atonement and unconditional election does NOT provide any excuse for those in hell? Because I just don't see it.

Thanks.

And again, sinners are in hell because they are sinners.

Now I await for you to explain why they have an excuse.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Sure thing. This OP. You are claiming that Calvinism teaches something that it doesn't. You can't show anywhere in Calvinism that it's taught that people are in hell because they aren't elect. That's not what earns them hell. It's there sin. I know you believe differently, but it is what Calvinism teaches. Stop with the bogus accusation.

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 3

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

Would those predestinated unto everlasting life be the elect?
Would 'others' foreordained to everlasting death be those who aren't elect?

I must ask, are any of those foreordained to everlasting death be the elect?