Different predestination

[SeventhValley]

This thread is for information only we have a different threads for debate:

Are thier any Baptists who hold to the Lutherian single predestination view where God damns no one prior to creation but gives all free will then calls some after they reject him?

From Wikipedia.

Single predestination
Drawing on Luther's "Bondage of the Will" written in his debate over free will with Erasmus, Lutherans hold doctrinally to a view of single predestination. That is to say, desiring to save all fallen human beings, God sent his Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of the whole world on the cross. Those God saves have been predestined from eternity in Christ. Those who are condemned are condemned because of their fallen will. While these statements may seem like they contradict each other, this is what Luther saw as THE major story-line within scripture and didn't attempt to systematically or logically "fix" it. The underlying question here is, of course, if God wants all to be saved and Jesus died for everyone, why doesn't God convert the fallen will of all? This is a question that Lutherans, following Luther, put into the category of the "hidden God", the God "behind the cross" whom we don't know everything about. The answer to the question lies within God's "hidden counsel" that we are to have nothing to do with. If we doubt our own predestination, we should look for it in the God who has revealed himself in the wounds of Christ on the cross and there see a God who loved us enough to die for us. For Lutherans, systematic treatment of predestination follows the Gospel (What God has done for us in Jesus Christ) rather than being a topic discussed prior to the Gospel. As such, the sole purpose of predestination is to reinforce "Justification by Grace through Faith solely on account of Christ". Believers are reminded "you didn't choose God, God chose you in Christ!"

 

[98cwitr]

Believers are reminded "you didn't choose God, God chose you in Christ!"

Amen!

John 15:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

 

[Hammster]

Single predestination = God works to save the elect. The non-elect are left in their sin.

Double predestination (or equal ultimacy) = God, in the same way that He works to save the elect, also works to keep the non-elect lost.

I am of the former.

 

[Legionwrex]

I have come to the conclusion not to focus too much on the issue.

 

[SeventhValley]

Single predestination = God works to save the elect. The non-elect are left in their sin.

Double predestination (or equal ultimacy) = God, in the same way that He works to save the elect, also works to keep the non-elect lost.

I am of the former.

So did you come from a Lutheran backround?

 

[Hammster]

So did you come from a Lutheran backround?

No. Baptist.

 

[98cwitr]

While my current theology seems to lean toward single predestination but this is rather stark evidence for double:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
New International Version (NIV)
10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[SeventhValley]

That quote to me seems an Arminian one.

Anyways I will move from Arminianism to single predestination from time to time.

 

[Skala]

I think you're all defining double predestination wrongly.

Double Predestination: God determines the destination of both those that end up in heaven, and those that end up in hell.

Equal ultimacy: God actively works to save the elect, and he actively works to make sure the non-elect are damned.

It's equal ultimacy that is false, not double predestination. In double predestination, God doesn't necessarily equally actively work to make sure the non-elect are damned - they're damned already because they are sinners! He simply lets them go their own way to the hell their sins deserve. But he's still making a decision to let them perish. Thus He's "deciding" their ultimate ends. Predestination.

 

[98cwitr]

That quote to me seems an Arminian one.

Anyways I will move from Arminianism to single predestination from time to time.

Why they refused must be addressed in order to claim such. See in verses 11 and 12 that God will keep the wicked in their nature. Gives me a new thread topic idea

 

[JM]

It's double or nothing.

The idea of reprobation provokes fear but it is biblical. It might help to think of reprobation as rejection, which is exactly it, God rejected non-elect Angels and men.

Remember the dreadful ministry of Isaiah?

"Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate," Isa. 6

He was sent to harden the hearts of his listeners through preaching.

I believe Luther may have, at one time, sided with double predestination. Some Reformed folks believe he did but softened his stance as he aged.

Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination by Brian G. Mattson


Yours in the Lord,

j

 

[pilgrim42]

Single predestination = God works to save the elect. The non-elect are left in their sin.

Double predestination (or equal ultimacy) = God, in the same way that He works to save the elect, also works to keep the non-elect lost.

I am of the former.

Single or double. Its all about the same thing. G-d doesn't predetermine anyone to be lost. We all have free will and we are perfectly capable of sending our own selves to Hell. It's OUR choice.

Ken

 

[98cwitr]

It's OUR choice.

Ken

Romans 9:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[JM]

Howdy Pilgrim, I don't want to debate, just wanted to offer a link and a few comments.

 

[Skala]

Single or double. Its all about the same thing. G-d doesn't predetermine anyone to be lost. We all have free will and we are perfectly capable of sending our own selves to Hell. It's OUR choice.

Ken

Nobody here is stating that God predetermines people to be lost.

People are lost and headed to hell because of their own sin and rebellion.

But if anyone is saved, it's not because they "wisened up", it's because of grace.

 

[Legionwrex]

Aren't double and single predestination the same thing? By the merit of only have two options, by choosing some to go to Heaven you are condemning the others to Hell. Certainly it's much more passive than actively sending them to Hell, but it does raise the question of why would a loving God create people who are born unable to respond to him and be saved, when he has the power to save them but chooses not to to somehow glorify himself in their destruction.

If Predestination to salvation is true, I would agree more with the Lutheran concept of it than the Calvinistic one.

 

[JM]

Exactly.

 

[Skala]

Aren't double and single predestination the same thing?

No.

By the merit of only have two options, by choosing some to go to Heaven you are condemning the others to Hell.

If they deserve hell for their sins, then there is no problem or injustice.

Certainly it's much more passive than actively sending them to Hell, but it does raise the question of why would a loving God create people who are born unable to respond to him and be saved

So now you deny Original Sin? The Bible clearly teaches that we, in and of ourselves, have no ability to come to Jesus. We must be enabled by God to do so, and that is a function of pure grace.

when he has the power to save then but chooses not to to somehow glorify himself in their destruction.

Regardless of one's view (Whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist) doesn't God have the power to save all people? Since the answer is yes, it seems that you're arguing against your own theology, not just Calvinism. God having the power to save all people (and choosing not to) is not unique to Calvinism. It's a truth that all theological systems except universalism share. Are you a universalist?

If Predestination to salvation is true, I would agree more with the Lutheran concept of it than the Calvinistic one.

It is true. Read your Bible.

 

[Legionwrex]

1. I mean they both end up having the same results. One is just more passive than the other.

2. Did I say there way? It was a problem of love, not justice.

3. Why are you continuing to insist that I deny things I never stated? I didn't deny this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

4. The difference with Calvinism is God essentially imposes it upon some people and leaves others helpless. And no, I'm not a universalist, considering that entire doctrine is extremely easy to disprove with Scripture.

5. I do. No where in the Bible do I see that some people are predestined for Heaven and others for Hell. I do see predestination in the terms of electing nations and individuals in the Bible. I'm not going to explicitly deny predestination as false, because if it is true I don't want to deny the Bible, but based on what I have seen there isn't much to support it.

 

[Skala]

1. I mean they both end up having the same results. One is just more passive than the other.

Double predestination is not necessarily equal ultimacy. You can believe in double predestination yet still believe God passively allows men to perish in their sins by letting them go their own way and remain in rebellion.

2. Did I say there way? It was a problem of love, not justice.

A judge can be loving yet still uphold justice. They are two different categories (love and justice). God can be loving yet send every single person to hell, because that is the just thing to do. (we deserve hell for our sins)

3. Why are you continuing to insist that I deny things I never stated? I didn't deny this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

It seemed odd that you argued against the idea that that humans are "without the ability to come to Jesus" when in fact the Bible states that exact thing (that we have no innate ability to come to Jesus, we need God's enablement. See John 6:44)

4. The difference with Calvinism is God essentially imposes it upon some people and leaves others helpless.

You mean God has the nerve to save sinners from the hell they would end up in otherwise!!?!?! HOW HORRID!!! *GASP*!!!!!

And no, I'm not a universalist, considering that entire doctrine is extremely easy to disprove with Scripture.

Ok cool, so you affirm that all soteriological views believe that God could save everyone, yet chooses not to. It's odd, then, that you seemed to think this was exclusive to Calvinism.

5. I do. No where in the Bible do I see that some people are predestined for Heaven and others for Hell.

All people are born into this world headed to hell by default. The requirements for going to heaven are you must be born "again". Being born just one time (physical) always results in hell. (In Adam all die)

I do see predestination in the terms of electing nations and individuals in the Bible.

Cool, maybe you can prove those assertions with exegesis? Because all of the greatest Bible teachers in the history of the church believed that predestination referred to salvation, not generic stuff.

I'm not going to explicitly deny predestination as false, because if it is true I don't want to deny the Bible, but based on what I have seen there isn't much to support it.

I know how you feel, but maybe if you understood it rightly your mind would be at more ease. I was in your shoes once too. It takes time to work through all the implications and the emotional thoughts that accompany studying this doctrine. it's not easy. but I'm confident the bible gives satisfactory answers.

A good starting place I'd recommend to any Christian is this free online video lecture. Check it out:

Chosen By God Teaching Series by Dr. R.C. Sproul from Ligonier Ministries