An atheists world

[TheBeardedDude]

At least try to get the "fantasy" right, will you?

Just because you think it's a fantasy, doesn't mean you can toss accuracy to the wind.

Or are you making up your own story?

There are so many different versions of the fantasy that I can't keep them all straight.

 

[bhsmte]

This argument could go on forever, with more sidestepping, on the spot justification for contradictions in the bible and in how God is described, etc. etc..

There is no question, there are contradictions in the holy book as to how God is described and then comparing that to what we see in the real world. It has been that way for a long time and will continue to be. Christians have as many explanations for these contradictions, as there are grains of sand on Malibu Beach and each one claims to have it correct and each explanation falls apart under scrutiny.

If there is a personal God (and I don't believe there is), no one, and I mean no one knows any of these answers, nor is anyone in the position to have any of these answers, so they grasp for straws in trying to explain the contradictions away. Round peg, trying to be placed in a square hole, usually never works all too well.

 

[AV1611VET]

There are so many different versions of the fantasy that I can't keep them all straight.

Well, to be honest, yours is a new one on me.

I know of no story that says God gave control of His creation directly to Satan.

In fact, just the opposite.

Satan offered it back to Jesus, and Jesus refused.

Unless I'm wrong, you made this up on the fly.

If not, please tell me the denomination, cult or whatever that teaches this, and I'll acquiesce.

 

[bhsmte]

There are so many different versions of the fantasy that I can't keep them all straight.

This is what happens when you have so many holes in a story. Everyone thinks they have the solution to any of the gaps and in reality, nothing makes any sense and the contradictions end up being magnified, as opposed to being solved.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Well, to be honest, yours is a new one on me.

I know of no story that says God gave control of His creation directly to Satan.

In fact, just the opposite.

Satan offered it back to Jesus, and Jesus refused.

Unless I'm wrong, you made this up on the fly.

If not, please tell me the denomination, cult or whatever that teaches this, and I'll acquiesce.

Hold on, so Satan got control in the first place, how?

 

[AV1611VET]

This argument could go on forever, with more sidestepping, on the spot justification for contradictions in the bible and in how God is described, etc. etc..

Ya ... we could go on correcting your junk theology all day.

When we err, it's because there are 30,000+ denominations.

But when you "theologians" err, it's because there are 30,000+ contradictions.

Right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Hold on, so Satan got control in the first place, how?

What did I say, TBD?

Adam turned it over to Satan.

God gave dominion of His creation to Adam, and Adam turned it over to Satan.

Later, Satan tried to use it to bribe Jesus, and Jesus refused.

Jesus will be back soon to take it back by force.

He will then hold it for 1000 years, and then turned it back over to His Father, Who will have it for all eternity.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

What did I say, TBD?

Adam turned it over to Satan.

God gave dominion of His creation to Adam, and Adam turned it over to Satan.

Later, Satan tried to use it to bribe Jesus, and Jesus refused.

Jesus will be back soon to take it back by force.

He will then hold it for 1000 years, and then turned it back over to His Father, Who will have it for all eternity.

So, Adam (who god has no control over?) gave it to Satan and then Satan gives god/Jesus the opportunity to take it back and he/they refuse?

God presumably knew all of this would happen, no?

 

[createdtoworship]

Nothing, because no knew has demonstrated the existence of angels so a story about angels and god has as much weight as fairies and god.

I realize you have found some idea to latch onto to justify your beliefs, now I am asking specifically for you to show me how these can be reconciled with God's perfect message to humans and where in that book these ideas are supported.

Otherwise, it would seem you are just pulling ideas out of anywhere you can grab them with no actual purpose or truth to your interpretation, no?

well I have been thinking about it overnight and the Bible says God is the "alpha and omega the beginning and the end" not to mention over 300 prophecies regarding Jesus Himself. So it is obvious that time is not an issue with God. Now in physics if you don't have time, you don't have mass. "mass acceleration of gravity." For instance if you took an atom clock and put it in a supersonic jet flying mock 2 it would be a slower clock than one on the earth not accelerated. Thats because if mass is accelerated time is too. They are coupled. So I figure if God doesn't have time, He doesn't have mass. That was my logic. Also as AV mentions omnipresence is an attribute of a massless diety. In the Bible it mentions glorified bodies that can come in and out of locked rooms (as in the upper room encounter with the risen Christ). Now it appears that these beings can solidify at will or appear at will, either one it doesn't matter.

So that would be the third Biblical evidence.

Again even if God does have a body of flesh (which scripture doesn't state other than Christs' resurrection body), it would appear He doensn't always stay that way.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

well I have been thinking about it overnight and the Bible says God is the "alpha and omega the beginning and the end" not to mention over 300 prophecies regarding Jesus Himself. So it is obvious that time is not an issue with God. Now in physics if you don't have time, you don't have mass. "mass acceleration of gravity." For instance if you took an atom clock and put it in a supersonic jet flying mock 2 it would be a slower clock than one on the earth not accelerated. Thats because if mass is accelerated time is too. They are coupled. So I figure if God doesn't have time, He doesn't have mass. That was my logic. Also as AV mentions omnipresence is an attribute of a massless diety. In the Bible it mentions glorified bodies that can come in and out of locked rooms (as in the upper room encounter with the risen Christ). Now it appears that these beings can solidify at will or appear at will, either one it doesn't matter.

So that would be the third Biblical evidence.

Again even if God does have a body of flesh (which scripture doesn't state other than Christs' resurrection body), it would appear He doensn't always stay that way.

You still haven't answered my question. Where does god tell the world this in his book?

 

[createdtoworship]

You still haven't answered my question. Where does god tell the world this in his book?

REvelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”[c] says the Lord,[d] “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

so Here God is claiming to be the beginning and the end, which would be implied that HE was outside of time.

here is a clip from a site that may help:

God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it (Isaiah 57:15). Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

What verses in scripture support the Christian doctrine that god exists outside of time? - Yahoo! Answers

 

[createdtoworship]

God could choose to know everything we will do but He deliberately chooses not to know that to give us free will.

foreknowledge

 

[TheBeardedDude]

REvelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”[c] says the Lord,[d] “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

so Here God is claiming to be the beginning and the end, which would be implied that HE was outside of time.

here is a clip from a site that may help:

God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it (Isaiah 57:15). Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

What verses in scripture support the Christian doctrine that god exists outside of time? - Yahoo! Answers

None of that suggests "outside of time", in fact, it suggests the existence of time when there should be none.

None of this indicates anything about a "26 dimension spacetime" or that god occupies any of spacetime other than the one in which we are supposed to be living in.

Does the bible not also suggest a firmament above the Earth and that god resides above this?

 

[createdtoworship]

Ok, I don't know if you're deliberately playing dumb...but let's go with baby steps...

You lot would claim that your god made everything in our existence....yes?

You would also claim that your god designed everything in that creation...yes?

Ok, so given that humans can be tempted into doing the wrong thing (sin), that must be part of our design....yes? If your god had designed us to resist all temptation, we would never do wrong....yes?

not part of the design, because doing the wrong thing is an absence of Good, not a positive character trait that would be in need of creation. Besides there is still free will to account for.

Now, you also tell us that your god is omniscient...that it can 'see all and know all'.....yes? This means that it knows every outcome of every choice and decision we will ever make, ahead of us doing it....yes?

yes

Finally, you also tell us that this god is into judgement...that it will decide upon our fate after death, depending upon the actions we have taken during our lives....yes?

yes

So, given all that, tell me how in Hades your god could be described as kind and loving and just, as you would also have us believe...!!?

well seeing your first premise fails, the rest of your argument simply doesn't follow, as I see God as graceous and kind.

 

[bhsmte]

None of that suggests "outside of time", in fact, it suggests the existence of time when there should be none.

None of this indicates anything about a "26 dimension spacetime" or that god occupies any of spacetime other than the one in which we are supposed to be living in.

Does the bible not also suggest a firmament above the Earth and that god resides above this?

The bible suggests a lot of things and observing how christians attempt to explain it, is let's say; entertaining.

 

[createdtoworship]

The bible suggests a lot of things and observing how christians attempt to explain it, is let's say; entertaining.

space time and 26 dimensions are two separate things

 

[bhsmte]

space time and 26 dimensions are two separate things

Uh huh.

 

[createdtoworship]

The reason the God stories are flawed is because the God stories are man made.

The bottom line of Christianity [and the vast majority of other religions] is that someone told someone else that God spoke to them, to be a Christian that is the first thing you must believe, if you can not believe that then all the rest is just hogwash, do you believe that person actually spoke to God? that is where the faith comes in, if you can believe that then the rest is easy.

Ask yourself if you would believe someone today if they told you God spoke to them? do you believe the people who tell you they were abducted by aliens or that they are Napoleon?

miracles and prophecy validate the Bible
how about this one it's my fav!

Over Seven Centuries before the birth of Christ God told the Prophet Isaiah that the time span between the Commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah would be exactly 476* years. (*seven=heptid). We know from any historical record that the order was in fact issued on March 14, 445B.C. When you add 173,880 days (476yrs) to the 14th of March, 445B.C. you come to April 6, A.D.32. Palm Sunday, The exact day Jesus entered triumphantly and openly into Jerusalem. [Predicted: Daniel 9:25/ Fulfilled: Luke 23:18]

 B.C. 445 A.D. 32 = 476 years (B.C. 1 to A.D. 1 = 1 yr.)
476 X 365 = 173,740 days
Add for leap years = 116 days
Mar. 14 to Apr. 6 = + 24 days (inclusive)
= 173,880


for a argument for a 360 day year see link below:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7765237-19/#post63952880

 

[Skaloop]

God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it (Isaiah 57:15). Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time”

'Before' requires the passage of time, which means that time had to have already existed. "Before the beginning of time" is as meaningless as being north of the north pole, or being east of the equator, or being below the bottom of the hole yer in.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

miracles and prophecy validate the Bible

Do you need to know all possible natural explanations for an event, in order to declare it a miracle?

How does it follow that something that is claimed to be a miracle necessarily means a god? (furthermore, how does it follow that it is the god of the bible?)

Which prophecies are you referring to? What of those prophecies that (even with all manner of acrobatics) must be deemed to be untrue?