God is sovereign over human behaviour and decisions

[Apologetic_Warrior]

(borrowed this list of verses from our fellow CFer prov1810. I hope he doesn't mind)


Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1Pe 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

1 Kn 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

2 Chron 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isa 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isa 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isa 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psa 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1Ki 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Gen 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Rev 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Prov. 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Ps. 65:4
Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You.

Deut. 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

2 Thes. 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts to God's love and Christ's endurance.

Deut. 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Jer. 24:7
"'And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

Judges 14:3-4
But Samson told his father, "Get her for me, because I want her." Now his father and mother did not know this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.

Isa. 13:16-17; Jer. 51:11
Their children will be smashed [to death] before their eyes;
their houses will be looted,
and their wives raped.

Look! I am stirring up the Medes against them [Babylon],
who cannot be bought off with silver
and who have no desire for gold.

Sharpen the arrows!
Fill the quivers!
The LORD has put it into the mind
of the kings of the Medes
because His plan is aimed at Babylon
to destroy her,
for it is the LORD's vengeance,
vengeance for His temple.

Ezek. 14:9
And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

1 Sam. 19:9-10
But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall.

2 Sam 24:1, 10
The LORD's anger burned against Israel again, and it stirred up David against them to say: "Go, count [the people of] Israel and Judah."
David's conscience troubled him after he had taken a census of the troops. He said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I've done. Now, LORD, because I've been very foolish, please take away your servant's guilt."

Prov. 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Prov. 19:31
Many plans are in a man's heart,
but the LORD's decree will prevail.

Ps. 33:10-11
The LORD frustrates the counsel of the nations;
He thwarts the plans of the peoples.

The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Nice list, here is another one:

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will," (NKJV)

I suppose the non-Calvininsts would charge us as arbitrarily picking and choosing verses where "all" means all, and does not mean all. I remember R.C. Sproul talking about the implications of "chance" or anything other than God as being outside of the Sovereignty of God. Oops something unknown slipped past God...He must be learning...like we do...I do not think people consider the attributes of God nearly enough when considering the sovereignty of God. How His will and omniscience go hand in hand. People think they're doing God some kind of favor, by ascribing terrible events to "mother nature", and "chance" etc. as though Jesus never calmed a storm, as though God did not make storms possible, as though God did not foresee them coming. Sigh*

 

[FreeGrace2]

The truth was that the "lying spirits" wanted to deceive people, and God allowed it. That's all.

true and if one reads the chapter (to get the context) one would have to note these alleged "prophets" were the Kings yes men and already were liars. This is like Pharaoh when God hardened his heart against Israel...pharaoh's heart was already hardened God just worked with this to His glory...likewise Nebi was already trying a few times to attack and win against Judah, but finally God just lifted His protective hand and allowed him to do so...

Paul

Great points, Paul. Thanks.

 

[elman]

Great points, Paul. Thanks.

but that is not what is said. It does not say God allowed lying spirits to do what they wanted. It says God asked for a spirit to lie for Him. He recruited a volunteer to lie for Him according to the story and sent that spirit on a mission to lie for Him. It is not great points and it does not address the problem that God does not lie.

 

[FreeGrace2]

but that is not what is said. It does not say God allowed lying spirits to do what they wanted.

Let us not split hairs. They were "lying spirits". That's what they do; lie. And God did allow them to lie.

It says God asked for a spirit to lie for Him. He recruited a volunteer to lie for Him according to the story and sent that spirit on a mission to lie for Him. It is not great points and it does not address the problem that God does not lie.

I think your points are 'not great'. God used lying spirits. Just as He uses the evil actions of evil people to bring about good. An excellent example is that of Joseph and his brothers.

Gen 50:15-21
15When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!” 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, 17‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? 20“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21“So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

 

[Skala]

Great points, Paul. Thanks.

Paul's "point" doesn't do anything to help his/your view on God's sovereignty.

The whole point is, God sent them (the lying spirits), which means that sin is part of God's overall plan and purpose. He decreed sin. He had a place for sin. He used sin towards his greater ultimate ends.

He could have chosen to not send the lying spirits, but he decreed that it would happen.

Hence, God decrees sin, which is what we've been saying all along.

 

[elman]

Let us not split hairs. They were "lying spirits". That's what they do; lie. And God did allow them to lie.
They did not lie until God ask them to lie.

I think your points are 'not great'. God used lying spirits. Just as He uses the evil actions of evil people to bring about good. An excellent example is that of Joseph and his brothers.

Gen 50:15-21
15When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!” 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, 17‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? 20“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21“So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

I don't question God can and will use evil for good. I question God does the evil. I don't see God commanding or asking the brothers to kill or sell Joseph into slavery. This story is not the same as the one where God recruits a volunteer from among the spirits for one to go and lie for Him.

 

[elman]

Paul's "point" doesn't do anything to help his/your view on God's sovereignty.

The whole point is, God sent them (the lying spirits), which means that sin is part of God's overall plan and purpose. He decreed sin. He had a place for sin. He used sin towards his greater ultimate ends.

He could have chosen to not send the lying spirits, but he decreed that it would happen.

Hence, God decrees sin, which is what we've been saying all along.

So you believe in an evil God. I do not. I believe God does not lie and I believe God does not do evil, such as creating people to torture. Sin by definition is not the will of God. God can use evil and sin for good, but that is a different issue from God being the author of sin and evil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't question God can and will use evil for good. I question God does the evil. I don't see God commanding or asking the brothers to kill or sell Joseph into slavery. This story is not the same as the one where God recruits a volunteer from among the spirits for one to go and lie for Him.

Good heavens! I've never even hinted that "God does the evil". Seems you aren't really following what I post. And, no, God didn't command the brothers to do what they did. But He used what they did for good.

And your view of the spirits is still wrong. They were lying spirits; that's what they do.

 

[Skala]

Good heavens! I've never even hinted that "God does the evil". Seems you aren't really following what I post. And, no, God didn't command the brothers to do what they did. But He used what they did for good.

And your view of the spirits is still wrong. They were lying spirits; that's what they do.

God didn't command Assyria to attack Israel, but he used them as "the rod of anger in his hands".

God controls people and their actions, then holds them accountable for the sin in their hearts.

This same principle is seen in the murder of Jesus. God didn't just "Get lucky" that some people happened to murder Jesus. No, it was God's "predestined plan". But God holds them accountable for their wickedness.

PS. something interesting about the Assyria account in Isaiah 10. God basically punishes Assyria for believing in Libertarian Free Will instead of Compatibilism

 

[elman]

Good heavens! I've never even hinted that "God does the evil". Seems you aren't really following what I post. And, no, God didn't command the brothers to do what they did. But He used what they did for good.

And your view of the spirits is still wrong. They were lying spirits; that's what they do.

That is not what the story of the lying spirit says. It was not a lying spirits until God asked it to lie. Have you hinted that God lies--is lying evil?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nice list, here is another one:

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will," (NKJV)

I suppose the non-Calvininsts would charge us as arbitrarily picking and choosing verses where "all" means all, and does not mean all. I remember R.C. Sproul talking about the implications of "chance" or anything other than God as being outside of the Sovereignty of God. Oops something unknown slipped past God...He must be learning...like we do...I do not think people consider the attributes of God nearly enough when considering the sovereignty of God. How His will and omniscience go hand in hand. People think they're doing God some kind of favor, by ascribing terrible events to "mother nature", and "chance" etc. as though Jesus never calmed a storm, as though God did not make storms possible, as though God did not foresee them coming. Sigh*

Great point, AW!! In fact, it appears that Calvinists consider that God's omniscience comes from His sovereignty, as in, He ONLY knows what He decrees. And thereby totally destroying the very meaning of omniscience.

His attribute of omniscience is separate from His sovereignty. Yes, they work together, but His omniscience does not flow from sovereignty. But I don't think Calvinists will understand that.

so, like other doctrines, Calvinists severely LIMIT God in His knowledge department. iow, He is LIMITED to knowing ONLY what He decrees. That MEANS that He can't know apart from His decrees. But He certainly does know everything. Meaning everything that He didn't cause to occur.

But, maybe the problem is that Calvinists really do believe that everything that occurs WAS caused by Him.

But then, they have the "sticky" problem of where sin and evil came from. Hm.

 

[FreeGrace2]

but that is not what is said. It does not say God allowed lying spirits to do what they wanted. It says God asked for a spirit to lie for Him. He recruited a volunteer to lie for Him according to the story and sent that spirit on a mission to lie for Him. It is not great points and it does not address the problem that God does not lie.

I really don't understand your problem. The spirits God "recruited" weren't truth tellers, now, were they. They were lying spirits. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hence, God decrees sin, which is what we've been saying all along.

How about we be real clear here?

Does God cause sin, or just permit sin, which He uses for His own purposes?

One or t'other. Which do you claim?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is not what the story of the lying spirit says. It was not a lying spirits until God asked it to lie. Have you hinted that God lies--is lying evil?

No, I've not hinted at any such thing.

 

[elman]

I really don't understand your problem. The spirits God "recruited" weren't truth tellers, now, were they. They were lying spirits. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

They were only lying spirits after they obeyed the command of God to lie.

 

[Skala]

How about we be real clear here?

Does God cause sin, or just permit sin, which He uses for His own purposes?

One or t'other. Which do you claim?

Neither.

Cause implies that God forced someone to do something they wouldn't have done otherwise.

Permit implies that God just got lucky that someone chose to sin, so he turned it around and used it for good.

The truth is God decrees sin, meaning it's always part of his plan and purpose, yet he doesn't force anyone to do it. They willingly do it from their own evil hearts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They were only lying spirits after they obeyed the command of God to lie.

Please show me the verse(s) that say that. Thanks.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Great point, AW!! In fact, it appears that Calvinists consider that God's omniscience comes from His sovereignty, as in, He ONLY knows what He decrees. And thereby totally destroying the very meaning of omniscience.

His attribute of omniscience is separate from His sovereignty. Yes, they work together, but His omniscience does not flow from sovereignty. But I don't think Calvinists will understand that.

so, like other doctrines, Calvinists severely LIMIT God in His knowledge department. iow, He is LIMITED to knowing ONLY what He decrees. That MEANS that He can't know apart from His decrees. But He certainly does know everything. Meaning everything that He didn't cause to occur.

But, maybe the problem is that Calvinists really do believe that everything that occurs WAS caused by Him.

But then, they have the "sticky" problem of where sin and evil came from. Hm.

Beneath the obvious sarcasm, is a severe lack of understanding Calvinism which prevails with stawman. One reading from the (1647) Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 3 demonstrates this:

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel." - WCF

 

[FreeGrace2]

Beneath the obvious sarcasm, is a severe lack of understanding Calvinism which prevails with stawman.

So, you really didn't really understand how profound your statement was?

One reading from the (1647) Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 3 demonstrates this:

Oh, good. Let's take a look.

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Seems none of the Calvinists have understood this, but this statement is internally contradicted. Grossly so.

First, it says, "God did ordain whatsoever comes to pass".

Second, it says, "yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures"

Nope. Both cannot be true. IF God did ordain what occurs, THEN He DID ordain sin, and that would be in a causative sense.

If God ordained sin, then He IS the author of sin. Period. Anything you may offer in argument is wasted.

This contradicted statement attempts to be speaking out of both sides of the mouth, saying different and contradictory things. Can't have both.

The truth is that God ISN'T the author of sin. He didn't ordain it. He knew it would occur, and allowed it. Which is different than saying that He ordained it.

Example: David "ordained" the murder of Uriah the Hittite. iow, David was the author of the murder. He didn't actually carry out the deed, but he authored it.

Whoever "ordains" anything IS the author of it.

I suggest you mull this over. It's a serious flaw in Calvinism.

 

[sdowney717]

Gal 3
NKJV

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

God spoke laws into existence that no man could live by that the promise by faith in Jesus is given to those who believe..

NIV

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 11

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded means like fish in a net, like being caught in a fishnet.
All men are shut up by God in a prison of sin. And this was purposely ordained, planned by God.

συγκλείω
1) to shut up together, enclose
a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

Authorized Version — conclude 2, inclose 1, shut up 1
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon :: G4788

It is up to God whether a man receives mercy from God to be saved.
God may or might have mercy on some, and not on others.


NKJV

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

NIV

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.