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God is sovereign over human behaviour and decisions

Skala

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(borrowed this list of verses from our fellow CFer prov1810. I hope he doesn't mind)


Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1Pe 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

1 Kn 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

2 Chron 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isa 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isa 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isa 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psa 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1Ki 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Gen 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Rev 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Prov. 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Ps. 65:4
Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You.

Deut. 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

2 Thes. 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts to God's love and Christ's endurance.

Deut. 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Jer. 24:7
"'And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

Judges 14:3-4
But Samson told his father, "Get her for me, because I want her." Now his father and mother did not know this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.

Isa. 13:16-17; Jer. 51:11
Their children will be smashed [to death] before their eyes;
their houses will be looted,
and their wives raped.

Look! I am stirring up the Medes against them [Babylon],
who cannot be bought off with silver
and who have no desire for gold.

Sharpen the arrows!
Fill the quivers!
The LORD has put it into the mind
of the kings of the Medes
because His plan is aimed at Babylon
to destroy her,
for it is the LORD's vengeance,
vengeance for His temple.

Ezek. 14:9
And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

1 Sam. 19:9-10
But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall.

2 Sam 24:1, 10
The LORD's anger burned against Israel again, and it stirred up David against them to say: "Go, count [the people of] Israel and Judah."
David's conscience troubled him after he had taken a census of the troops. He said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I've done. Now, LORD, because I've been very foolish, please take away your servant's guilt."

Prov. 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Prov. 19:31
Many plans are in a man's heart,
but the LORD's decree will prevail.

Ps. 33:10-11
The LORD frustrates the counsel of the nations;
He thwarts the plans of the peoples.

The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
 

Skala

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Hamm is correct! In fact Skala...even the words being implied to support the same argument are different words meaning different things and do not prove the OP's implication.

I'm curious Paul, do you pay this much attention to context for other verses...say, 2nd Peter 3:9? Could you provide some exegesis for 2nd Peter 3:9 and tell me what you think it is saying? Can you follow the pronouns backwards to establish their antecedents, etc?

As for the verses on this thread, lets take a look at some of them:

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.


Here we see that Eli's sons did not listen to their father's advice to repent, and we are told the reason why: For the Lord desired to put them to death. Here, God has withheld repentance, because He had other goals in mind (their death) So we see that God is directly in charge of whether a person repents or not. That qualifies as God being sovereign over human actions and decisions.

1 Kn 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.


Here we see that the king did not listen to the people, because God instead had different plans: to establish his word. So yet again we see that God is in charge of people's decisions.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."


What wicked men did to Christ was simply "whatever God's hand purpose predestined". Pretty simple.

2 Chron 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.


It was from God that Amaziah would not listen. Sounds like God's in charge and has a plan!

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."


Uh oh. God hardened someone's spirit so that they are not willing to do something? (in this case, willing to let them pass through his land) God is in control of a man's will? Sounds like it!

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.


Notice, it's not the devil that sends them a strong delusion so that they believe a lie; it's God himself. So God is even in charge of whether a person believes the truth or believes a lie. He's that sovereign.

Paul, please brother, as a fellow Christian, I beg you: Submit to the sovereignty of God in all things. He "works all things after the counsel of His own will" Eph 1:11

This isn't Calvinism speaking - it's the Bible speaking.
 
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GenetoJean

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(borrowed this list of verses from our fellow CFer prov1810. I hope he doesn't mind)


Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1Pe 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

1 Kn 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

2 Chron 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isa 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isa 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isa 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psa 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1Ki 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Gen 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Rev 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Prov. 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Ps. 65:4
Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You.

Deut. 30:6
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

2 Thes. 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts to God's love and Christ's endurance.

Deut. 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Jer. 24:7
"'And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

Judges 14:3-4
But Samson told his father, "Get her for me, because I want her." Now his father and mother did not know this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.

Isa. 13:16-17; Jer. 51:11
Their children will be smashed [to death] before their eyes;
their houses will be looted,
and their wives raped.

Look! I am stirring up the Medes against them [Babylon],
who cannot be bought off with silver
and who have no desire for gold.

Sharpen the arrows!
Fill the quivers!
The LORD has put it into the mind
of the kings of the Medes
because His plan is aimed at Babylon
to destroy her,
for it is the LORD's vengeance,
vengeance for His temple.

Ezek. 14:9
And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

1 Sam. 19:9-10
But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall.

2 Sam 24:1, 10
The LORD's anger burned against Israel again, and it stirred up David against them to say: "Go, count [the people of] Israel and Judah."
David's conscience troubled him after he had taken a census of the troops. He said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I've done. Now, LORD, because I've been very foolish, please take away your servant's guilt."

Prov. 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Prov. 19:31
Many plans are in a man's heart,
but the LORD's decree will prevail.

Ps. 33:10-11
The LORD frustrates the counsel of the nations;
He thwarts the plans of the peoples.

The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Oh wow!!! Thank you for telling me that. Now I can do whatever I feel like because after all God is making me do it. Whew.
 
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Hillsage

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2 Timothy 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

I have a screensaver banner on my computer which says "God reigns through those who submit and he rules over those who do not." I feel like I wrote it under His inspiration some time back, and to this day I still wonder and meditate upon it.
 
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GenetoJean

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2 Timothy 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

I have a screensaver banner on my computer which says "God reigns through those who submit and he rules over those who do not." I feel like I wrote it under His inspiration some time back, and to this day I still wonder and meditate upon it.

Now that makes more sense.
 
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Hammster

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I didnt mean for it too. I dont do duelling verses. Gets the debate nowhere. I have just never understood the belief stated in the OP.

I never said anything about dueling verses.
 
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GenetoJean

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Most debates on here turn into dueling verses. If I point out how a belief that God controls all of our decisions takes all of the responsiblity off of us, which I dont think he does, then par for the course is the person who is going to disagree with me will post some verses and not try to discuss the issue.
 
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Hammster

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Most debates on here turn into dueling verses. If I point out how a belief that God controls all of our decisions takes all of the responsiblity off of us, which I dont think he does, then par for the course is the person who is going to disagree with me will post some verses and not try to discuss the issue.

So you came in to Soteriology, where we discuss things like the range of God's sovereignty, just to make a snide remark?
 
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GenetoJean

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So you came in to Soteriology, where we discuss things like the range of God's sovereignty, just to make a snide remark?

You know looking back at my post, I suppose that is what I ended up doing. I am sorry, I had no business doing that. I should have paid more attention to what I said. Thank you for bringing me to realise that.
 
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Skala

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Most debates on here turn into dueling verses. If I point out how a belief that God controls all of our decisions takes all of the responsiblity off of us, which I dont think he does, then par for the course is the person who is going to disagree with me will post some verses and not try to discuss the issue.

Rather than dueling verses, why don't we address these ones first.

If the verses don't teach what they seem to be implying, maybe we should first set out to prove that, before we bring more verses into the picture?

So, if these verses are "understood wrongly because of context", by all means, let's take a look together and see if we can let the Bible teach us something.
 
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sdowney717

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Because it is divine truth. Why do you deny it?

ALL scripture is God breathed and is profitable for rebuke, correction, training in righteousness.

God's ways are not ours, nor His thoughts ours. God does things we don't always like. We do need to be thankful to Him in all things and acknowledge God in all our ways.
 
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