Name a doctrine that you used to believe in but dont anymore.

[Thekla]

Well, frankly, if I need visual reminders to remind me of my faith, then perhaps I should look deep and hard on whether I really have a faith. If I have to look towards icons to convince me that what is true and real is really true and real, then my faith is on shaky ground. Our faith is based on believeing in the unseen, not the seen. Inputeing the seen into faith makes it a lesser form of faith.

Why do you need the seen for you to know what is really in you?

Hope it's not intrusive, but thought to jump in with personal experience:

Christians read and re-read the Scriptures, and I would think all do so because of the spiritual benefit, and thus they deem it necessary to do so.
(Even John Chrysostom exhorts on the necessity of reading the Holy Scriptures, well over a thousand years ago).

Some Christians can't read - whether a temporary or permanent condition.
The written text requires certain biologically based skill-sets (having developed the ability to walk, sight, short-term visual memory, etc.) to decipher; it builds one concept at a time (word) to more and more complex concept clusters (phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc.)

Our son has Schizoaffective disorder; for a long time his brain was so affected, he could not recall the previous sentence when reading the next sentence; with more complex concepts the problem would occur phrase to phrase. We could only speak with him in the shortest amount of information possible, else the whole conveyance would be lost. Even when he did "get" what we said, his understanding was often 'garbled' (distorted). But show him an icon of a Biblical event, or Christ, or a Saint he knew of -- then, he could tell us a great deal of information about what was depicted. Certainly more than he could have done by hearing or reading of the same.

Pictorial representation does not convey information by building in a linear, logical fashion. The pictorial denotes a "simultaneous delivery" which sources different parts of the brain than does reading. Information can be added through verbal means, including question and answer -- in small bites if needed, but even then the pictorial provides a mnemonic template for association and retrieval of information.

Even for readers, the icon presents information in a different but rich form.
As the icon is typically heavily stylized, it is not easily mistaken for secular art forms and subjects. Its symbolism can be easily explained with few words.


Christ is for all people - including those who cannot (or cannot yet) read.

The Church thus serves all - readers and non-readers, all intellectual abilities, learning styles ...

 

[Tzaousios]

Apparently she's an Arizona Greek...

No, I think she like's the flag's pretty colors.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hope it's not intrusive, but thought to jump in with personal experience:

Christians read and re-read the Scriptures, and I would think all do so because of the spiritual benefit, and thus they deem it necessary to do so.
(Even John Chrysostom exhorts on the necessity of reading the Holy Scriptures, well over a thousand years ago).

Some Christians can't read - whether a temporary or permanent condition.
The written text requires certain biologically based skill-sets (having developed the ability to walk, sight, short-term visual memory, etc.) to decipher; it builds one concept at a time (word) to more and more complex concept clusters (phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc.)

Our son has Schizoaffective disorder; for a long time his brain was so affected, he could not recall the previous sentence when reading the next sentence; with more complex concepts the problem would occur phrase to phrase. We could only speak with him in the shortest amount of information possible, else the whole conveyance would be lost. Even when he did "get" what we said, his understanding was often 'garbled' (distorted). But show him an icon of a Biblical event, or Christ, or a Saint he knew of -- then, he could tell us a great deal of information about what was depicted. Certainly more than he could have done by hearing or reading of the same.

Pictorial representation does not convey information by building in a linear, logical fashion. The pictorial denotes a "simultaneous delivery" which sources different parts of the brain than does reading. Information can be added through verbal means, including question and answer -- in small bites if needed, but even then the pictorial provides a mnemonic template for association and retrieval of information.

Even for readers, the icon presents information in a different but rich form.
As the icon is typically heavily stylized, it is not easily mistaken for secular art forms and subjects. Its symbolism can be easily explained with few words.


Christ is for all people - including those who cannot (or cannot yet) read.

The Church thus serves all - readers and non-readers, all intellectual abilities, learning styles ...

Hi Thekla, you intrusive? Never, I always look forward for your input! Yeah I think I'm understanding you guys better now. At first the message I was getting was that icons can be used to base your faith on, but Rev Randy has got me understanding it in a way I can agree on. Like he said, we all use something to get us into that frame of mind to honestly and truely worship God. I am not against anything used that will help you out in doing so.

 

[Thekla]

Hi Thekla, you intrusive? Never, I always look forward for your input! Yeah I think I'm understanding you guys better now. At first the message I was getting was that icons can be used to base your faith on, but Rev Randy has got me understanding it in a way I can agree on. Like he said, we all use something to get us into that frame of mind to honestly and truely worship God. I am not against anything used that will help you out in doing so.

Thanks for being gracious

They do indeed have an important role in worship (even driving the mind back to "the point" when the eyes begin to wander )

With our children, they have been so valuable - for our son when his condition was pretty bad, and for our other children they helped not only with instruction but also with communicating faith when in the pre-verbal phase.

And they do help with "disposition", as they 'model' disposition

 

[Cappadocious]

Riiiight.... that's why you bow to the church door, since Jesus said He was the door, and never once claimed the statement to be a metaphor or allegory. He simply stated it.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

You will notice that in "I am the door [for the sheep]" statement, Christ says "he will go in and out and find pasture", still speaking using the notion of sheep.

In the "I am the bread of life" statement, he says that he who eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life, will live forever, will be resurrected, and has no life in him if he does not do this.

There is a big difference in treatment here. Not to mention the fact that nobody except neoplatonic religionists (what evangelicals generally call Gnostics) agreed with the idea that the "bread of life" was a mere reference to some spiritual/intellectual reality until many centuries after Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Going Merry

Nah i just dont go to any churches and im saved so i guess its not important
​

Yeah, there aren't many nondenominational Protestant churches to choose from in Greece, are there?

Which is kind of surprising since Paul went there to preach the Gospel,

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV
"greece"
occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the NKJV

Act 20:
1 After the uproar had ceased, Paul called the disciples to [himself], embraced [them], and departed to go to Macedonia.
2 Now when he had gone over that region and encouraged them with many words, he came to Greece and stayed three months.




.

 

[Defensor Christi]

It was scripture before it was canonized. The ECFs in the first and second century quoted extensively from every book of my Bible save 2, one OT and one NT, and quoted not at all from gnostic texts or heretical documents. Seems that they had the same Bible I do, only think is that mine is all bound together and in English. Trying to claim that big "C" Catholics gave us the Bible is ignorant. Another thing, Paul certainly was not teaching a sacramental system of salvation, regardless of what people say. You can't get that from scripture any more than you can get blood from a turnip.

Funny...your bible is missing some books. Although they quoted from Cannonized Scripture, they also quoted from letters/writings that werent included..I am glad to see you are finally seeing the value in ECF quotes...I guess that makes my quote concerning infant baptism valid...thanks for coming around!! I teach RCIA if you are interested....

Take your own advice.

I do...that is why I look at everthing, not my narrow interpretation of things.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Name a doctrine that you used to believe in but dont anymore.


ROMAN CATHOLICISM

Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Catholic tradition and doctrine hold that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD in Judea within the Roman Empire.
The New Testament records Jesus' activities and teaching, his appointment of the twelve Apostles and his instructions to them to continue his work.

The Catholic Church teaches that the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles, in an event known as Pentecost, signalled the beginning of the public ministry of the Catholic Church.[74] Catholic doctrine teaches that the contemporary Catholic Church is the continuation of this early Christian community.
It interprets the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew as Christ's designation of Saint Peter the Apostle and his successors, the Bishops of Rome to be the temporal head of his Church, a doctrine known as apostolic succession.




.

 

[yogosans14]

Funny...your bible is missing some books. Although they quoted from Cannonized Scripture, they also quoted from letters/writings that werent included..I am glad to see you are finally seeing the value in ECF quotes...I guess that makes my quote concerning infant baptism valid...thanks for coming around!! I teach RCIA if you are interested....




I do...that is why I look at everthing, not my narrow interpretation of things.

I remember I wanted to go to RCIA a while ago, that ship has sailed though.......

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Defensor Christi

Funny...your bible is missing some books. Although they quoted from Cannonized Scripture, they also quoted from letters/writings that werent included..I am glad to see you are finally seeing the value in ECF quotes...I guess that makes my quote concerning infant baptism valid...thanks for coming around!! I teach RCIA if you are interested....
​

I remember I wanted to go to RCIA a while ago, that ship has sailed though.......

Nothing wrong with leaving a leaking, sinking ship [remember the Titanic ]

Jerem 51:64
"Then you shall say, 'Thus Babylon shall sink and not rise from the catastrophe that I will bring upon her, and they shall be weary.' "
Thus far [are] the words of Jeremiah.

Rev 18:2
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

 

[yogosans14]

Nothing wrong with leaving a leaking, sinking ship [remember the Titanic ]

Jerem 51:64
"Then you shall say, 'Thus Babylon shall sink and not rise from the catastrophe that I will bring upon her, and they shall be weary.' "
Thus far [are] the words of Jeremiah.

Rev 18:2
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Lol Babylon the great isnt the RCC though.

 

[juleamager]

I've rejected:

The doctrine that the Eucharist is only a symbol and/or memorial of Christ's body and blood.

The doctrine that Baptism is only an external, symbolic act made as a personal choice to demonstrate personal faith.

The doctrine that we only need Scripture and not tradition.

The allergy to the Theotokos.

The idea of having statues in churches.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I remember I wanted to go to RCIA a while ago, that ship has sailed though.......

For this year, probably yes - my parish started the RCIA program for this coming Easter in late July, I imagine that most parishes would have started RCIA by now.

You can always start next year.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yogosans14

I remember I wanted to go to RCIA a while ago, that ship has sailed though.......
​

For this year, probably yes - my parish started the RCIA program for this coming Easter in late July, I imagine that most parishes would have started RCIA by now.

You can always start next year.

Are you trying to proselytize here

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Matt 23:15
"Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Because ye compass the sea and the dry to make one proselyte,
and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.





.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I remember I wanted to go to RCIA a while ago, that ship has sailed though.......

For this year, probably yes - my parish started the RCIA program for this coming Easter in late July, I imagine that most parishes would have started RCIA by now.

You can always start next year.

Are you trying to proselytize here

Offering advice to one who seems to have missed the boat.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I've rejected:

The doctrine that the Eucharist is only a symbol and/or memorial of Christ's body and blood.

The doctrine that Baptism is only an external, symbolic act made as a personal choice to demonstrate personal faith.

The doctrine that we only need Scripture and not tradition.

The allergy to the Theotokos.

The idea of having statues in churches.

Are you a 7th day sabbatarian? Just curious, as I saw this on your profile board about you.

"Former Reformed Jew and Eastern Catholic and now Torah abiding Eastern Christian (not yet Orthodox, I haven't been confirmed yet) who hopes to be a light for God in darkness".



.

 

[yogosans14]

For this year, probably yes - my parish started the RCIA program for this coming Easter in late July, I imagine that most parishes would have started RCIA by now.

You can always start next year.

Well I couldnt go anyways but I probably wouldnt if I could since I dont agree with 2 big doctrines- Purgatory and immauclate conception.

But I respect the RCC deeply and I love the liturgical worship. I watch Mother Angelica too love her

 

[yogosans14]

Are you trying to proselytize here

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Matt 23:15
"Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Because ye compass the sea and the dry to make one proselyte,
and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.





.

Are you a SDA?SDA's believe that the RCC is the great harlot of babylon

 

[juleamager]

Are you a 7th day sabbatarian? Just curious, as I saw this on your profile board about you.

I am. Sabbath is and always will be Saturday, the seventh day. Sunday is the Lord's Day.

 

[Pteriax]

Not to mention the fact that nobody except neoplatonic religionists (what evangelicals generally call Gnostics) agreed with the idea that the "bread of life" was a mere reference to some spiritual/intellectual reality until many centuries after Christ.

First off this isn't even true. Secondly there is a lot of middle ground between Jesus existing literally in a cracker and "just some spiritual reference". This makes your argument a fallacy. A straw man to be exact. It is a highly significant symbolic act to most protestants.