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Name a doctrine that you used to believe in but dont anymore.

Defensor Christi

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You people love to say what Christianity has always taught don't you? What is the earliest SPECIFIC mention of infant baptism? Don't give me the household garbage either, that is ambiguous at best. I want a specific example with a specific date attached to it, so we can all see just how long it has "always been taught".


You people...LOL!!!

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Irenaeus[/FONT]

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Early Teachings on Infant Baptism | Catholic Answers
 
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Defensor Christi

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The thread is a PRIME example of the doctrinal variations amongst Protestant Denom's...one of the the main reasons I left that entire realm for Rome.

I wish I could bottle this thread and show it to all the people that believe there is any type of unity amongst Protestants...thanks everybody!!
 
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MoreCoffee

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The thread is a PRIME example of the doctrinal variations amongst Protestant Denom's...one of the the main reasons I left that entire realm for Rome.

I wish I could bottle this thread and show it to all the people that believe there is any type of unity amongst Protestants...thanks everybody!!

You can bottle it - in effect - by downloading it to a PDF and printing it for those who can cope with the style ;)
 
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dogs4thewin

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Here are Five I used to believe:

Spiritual ability (though I held to original sin and total depravity, without the consequence of total inability)
Conditional Election
Universal Atonement
Resistible Grace
Self-Perseverance

It is debatable in some circles as to whether or not these are heretical, historically they were officially rejected and countered by the Synod of Dordt 1618-19, and before that by many others, though perhaps not everyone one of them by a single person. Personally, I consider them erroneous, deformed and not sound, but grudgingly tolerable within the broader scope of Christianity. In other words, there is room for differing views within Christianity, and therefore room enough for error, but only to a certain extent, which God knows. It is not like knowledge and profession of correct views actually saves or has the power to save a person. We tend to have an assumption that those truly saved have that true knowledge, when in truth, here on earth, we Christians are works in progress. God have mercy!
You sound that you used to believe what I believe.
 
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MoreCoffee

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This thread would provide excellent material for an ardent atheist. With it such a person could show that the message of the bible both says Once saved always saved and that one can lose salvation, that baptism regenerates and does not regenerate, that the Lord's supper is the Lord's flesh and blood and is not the Lord's flesh and blood, and so on. I guess we've managed to prove at least one of several possible things:
  • The bible is full of contradictions
  • The bible is incomprehensible
  • The bible is too obscure to arrive at a single consistent set of beliefs
  • Christians are deeply divided
  • Christians make things up as they go along
Quite an achievement for one thread ;)
 
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Pteriax

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I am still waiting on that hard archaeological evidence that "proves" Christian mysticism is all subjective feelings and heresy. Where is it?

That was in a different topic, and it is also not what I said at all. What I said in the other topic was that archaeology proves the validity of the Bible. I pray that you do not twist scripture as you so frequently twist my words.
 
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Pteriax

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That would be in the Acts of the Apostles chapter two where saint Peter, the first pope, says, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and your children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter where they live." (Acts 2:38-39) - One hopes that the 'garbage' you do not want to see is not a reference to sacred scripture. In any case, the scripture is about God's promise that is put into effect through repentance and baptism for parents and their children. Truly if the promise is for both the parent and the child then it is effected in the same manner for both, that is, through baptism. And since baptism is a work of God which cleanses one from sins and incorporates one into the body of the Lord, Jesus Christ, then what counts is God's intention in the act of baptism. It is a little bit disturbing to see your post referring to household baptism as 'garbage' but perhaps it is something else that you intend to call garbage - maybe the doctrine which recognises baptism as an act of God rather than a human act of testimony about having come to personal belief in Jesus Christ and repentance for one's sins? The specific date would be about 33 AD, on the day of Pentecost.

Children and infants are two different things, rendering your quote null and void as far as establishing a SPECIFIC mention of infant baptism. Also, there are other mentions of households in say John chapter 4 that implicitly exclude infants, so yeah the household argument is garbage. Good day.
 
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Pteriax

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You people...LOL!!!

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Irenaeus[/FONT]

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Early Teachings on Infant Baptism | Catholic Answers


AD 189... I thought as much. What a lot of bunk!
 
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T

Thekla

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Not a doctrine per se, but an 'underpinning' belief that sin was entirely a "moral/ethical category" (and thus related to will, cognizance, etc.).

Children and infants are two different things, rendering your quote null and void as far as establishing a SPECIFIC mention of infant baptism. Also, there are other mentions of households in say John chapter 4 that implicitly exclude infants, so yeah the household argument is garbage. Good day.

Teknon (Acts 2:39) means "offspring" (and is translated child, but is not age reliant).

When my children were infants, they were (still) my children. Now that many of my children are adults, they are still my children. They are my "teknon", regardless of age.
(Do you ask friends with infants, "How are your infants ?" or "How are your children ?")

Can you explain how it is that the household in John 4 "implicitly excludes" infants ?
 
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MoreCoffee

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... What is the earliest SPECIFIC mention of infant baptism?
That would be in the Acts of the Apostles chapter two where saint Peter, the first pope, says, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and your children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter where they live." (Acts 2:38-39) - One hopes that the 'garbage' you do not want to see is not a reference to sacred scripture. In any case, the scripture is about God's promise that is put into effect through repentance and baptism for parents and their children. Truly if the promise is for both the parent and the child then it is effected in the same manner for both, that is, through baptism. And since baptism is a work of God which cleanses one from sins and incorporates one into the body of the Lord, Jesus Christ, then what counts is God's intention in the act of baptism.
Don't give me the household garbage either
It is a little bit disturbing to see your post referring to household baptism as 'garbage' but perhaps it is something else that you intend to call garbage - maybe the doctrine which recognises baptism as an act of God rather than a human act of testimony about having come to personal belief in Jesus Christ and repentance for one's sins?
, that is ambiguous at best. I want a specific example with a specific date attached to it, so we can all see just how long it has "always been taught".
The specific date would be about 33 AD, on the day of Pentecost.
Children and infants are two different things, rendering your quote null and void as far as establishing a SPECIFIC mention of infant baptism. Also, there are other mentions of households in say John chapter 4 that implicitly exclude infants, so yeah the household argument is garbage. Good day.

Every infant is also a child. An infant is a child. The two words have considerable overlap in meaning. Your statement is both inaccurate and undocumented. People cannot make up definitions for words just to bolster an argument and expect that it will not be noticed.
Wikipedia said:
Biologically, a child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of child generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority.

Child may also describe a relationship with a parent (such as sons and daughters of any age) or, metaphorically, an authority figure, or signify group membership in a clan, tribe, or religion; it can also signify being strongly affected by a specific time, place, or circumstance, as in "a child of nature" or "a child of the Sixties"
 
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BelievingIsObeying

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MoreCoffee said:
Every infant is also a child. An infant is a child. The two words have considerable overlap in meaning. Your statement is both inaccurate and undocumented. People cannot make up definitions for words just to bolster an argument and expect that it will not be noticed.

Every infant is a child, just as every person is a child no matter their age. I'm 28 yet I am still my parents child. My 90 year old grandmother is still her parents child and together with her siblings are their children.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Every infant is a child, just as every person is a child no matter their age. I'm 28 yet I am still my parents child. My 90 year old grandmother is still her parents child and together with her siblings are their children.

But you probably would object to being called a child or included in a group called children.
 
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New_Wineskin

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Mine would be that jesus is micheal the archangel and that hell doesnt exist.

Name one that you have thought was biblical but found out it was heretical?
Only one ?
Hmmm . Ok . Water baptism as an important part of Christianity .

I am answering this in response to the question included in the thread title - not the "heretical" question .
 
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bornofGod888

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That would be in the Acts of the Apostles chapter two where saint Peter, the first pope, says, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and your children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter where they live." (Acts 2:38-39) - One hopes that the 'garbage' you do not want to see is not a reference to sacred scripture. In any case, the scripture is about God's promise that is put into effect through repentance and baptism for parents and their children. Truly if the promise is for both the parent and the child then it is effected in the same manner for both, that is, through baptism. And since baptism is a work of God which cleanses one from sins and incorporates one into the body of the Lord, Jesus Christ, then what counts is God's intention in the act of baptism.

It is a little bit disturbing to see your post referring to household baptism as 'garbage' but perhaps it is something else that you intend to call garbage - maybe the doctrine which recognises baptism as an act of God rather than a human act of testimony about having come to personal belief in Jesus Christ and repentance for one's sins?

The specific date would be about 33 AD, on the day of Pentecost.

:doh:

Why did you start in verse 38? Why not start in verse 37?

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." - Acts 2:37-39

After Peter's sermon, his hearers were "pricked in their heart" and they asked Peter and the apostles what they must do to be saved. IOW, just as Peter wrote in his first epistle, their resulting baptisms were "the answer of a good conscience toward God" (I Pet. 3:21). When you can find me any newborn infant who will respond accordingly or who can give an "answer of a good conscience toward God" before being baptized, then let me know. I won't be holding my breath. Furthermore, by preaching repentance as a prerequisite for baptism, Peter was merely following the Lord's instructions:

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." - Luke 24:46

Yes, repentance is a prerequisite to "remission of sins", so when you can show me a newborn infant who repents, then we'll talk. Again, I won't be holding my breath. Additionally, what I just cited was a portion of what Luke recorded in reference to "the great commission". We both know how Mark's record of the same reads, don't we?

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16

Believe first and then be baptized. Couple that with Jesus' prerequisite of repentance and you have the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." - Hebrews 6:1-2

Your "beliefs" in regard to infant baptism are unfounded and ought to be renounced and replaced with scriptural truth.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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People cannot make up definitions for words just to bolster an argument and expect that it will not be noticed.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Biologically, a child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of child generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority.

Child may also describe a relationship with a parent (such as sons and daughters of any age) or, metaphorically, an authority figure, or signify group membership in a clan, tribe, or religion; it can also signify being strongly affected by a specific time, place, or circumstance, as in "a child of nature" or "a child of the Sixties"

So we rely on 'Wikipedia'? ;)

Yes, I suspect the Atheists WOULD have a field day with this thread...
 
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