The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[Keachian]

That's not what it means for the sanctuary to be cleansed.

we went over this in the first 100 pages of this thread, the sacrifice is more typified by the annointing and commissioning of the temple/tabernacle, however it extends to all the sacrifice of the old covenant. The problem is your prophet has stated that it is not finished, disregarding the drumbeat of ephapax throughout the book of Hebrews, in order to have the crutch for her belief which she doesn't want to let go of. The first part of her career was largely an apology for the 1844 that eventually morphed into the defense of the unsubstantiable IJ doctrine in the later parts especially with her Conflict of the Ages series which for some strange reason presupposes a Zoroastrian style duotheism and not the Biblical monotheism.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You should really learn your history in regards to this matter. It's not smoke for one. Second the widely held view among Christians at that time was that the earth was the sanctuary. Given the study of the prophecy, and the fact that the bible does not say "No one shall ever know..." Miller's conclusion (along with others who came to the same conclusion but weren't part of that movement), was logical.

No... Miller's conclusion was based upon rejecting the logical conclusion that if Jesus himself who was smarter than he was didn't know and the authors of the Bible that came after Jesus didn't know then how could he know?

Lastly, most of those people went back to their demoninations, or left the church altogether. It was only a few who remained that ended up forming the Seventh-Day Adventist church. And no one has claimed to have superior knowledge. We simply have studied the past to understand the prophecy for that time in it's appropriate light. The prophecies we proclaim now largely pertain to the events to unfold before the coming of Christ in regards to the true and false church. For the most part, it's the same thing that was taught by the reformers.

The ones that went back to denominations or left were smarter than the ones that formed a church and used theology from people who caused such a huge problem in the first place. I would contend most of those who started the SDA church were duped by this prophecy and the IJ does nothing to make them smarter they still were made to look like fools then. We don't see any major denominations playing this Jesus coming prediction game at all... just groups like the SDA and I believe the JW's also have some of their theology based upon this crowd too... ironically.

It's not about having a "superior" understanding, but the proper one.

Superior is the correct word when you equate others understanding as inferior.

 

[Sophrosyne]

we went over this in the first 100 pages of this thread, the sacrifice is more typified by the annointing and commissioning of the temple/tabernacle, however it extends to all the sacrifice of the old covenant. The problem is your prophet has stated that it is not finished, disregarding the drumbeat of ephapax throughout the book of Hebrews, in order to have the crutch for her belief which she doesn't want to let go of. The first part of her career was largely an apology for the 1844 that eventually morphed into the defense of the unsubstantiable IJ doctrine in the later parts especially with her Conflict of the Ages series which for some strange reason presupposes a Zoroastrian style duotheism and not the Biblical monotheism.

The problem with a lie is when you try and cover it up it only leads to more lies which in return get more exceedingly complex and bizarre.

 

[Keachian]

It's not that I've stopped trying to defend it. It's that I've decided there's a limit to how much one can say before it becomes useless. My job is not to convict or convience anyone here. I don't mind answering a few questions every now and then, but for some individuals, it won't matter what is said, they simply won't believe.

I am aware of how useless it is to try and convince you that you are wrong, but the truth must stand without the attacks on it from those who have been duped.

But again, it's not convoluted. You say that because you don't understand it, and you don't want to understand because you have a bias against Adventism.

I have detailed my understanding of the IJ numerous times, both with why I don't agree with it and without, always asking where my errors in understanding are and yet I have not been answered.

One can prophecy without being a prophet. Sr White had many gifts. So please answer the question, when did she call herself a prophet. We're not talking about what other people called her, but about what she called herself.

I don't think it matters what she believed of herself, your doctrinal statement says that she is a prophet, therefore when you said that there were no prophets at the time of the Great Disappointment you are contradicting what you believe. This is a smokescreen to try and backpedal.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I don't think it matters what she believed of herself, your doctrinal statement says that she is a prophet, therefore when you said that there were no prophets at the time of the Great Disappointment you are contradicting what you believe. This is a smokescreen to try and backpedal.

I don't see how a group of people on their own could ever go to the lengths that they did believing Jesus would return without someone convincing them of the future which IMO... is the job description of a prophet.

 

[Stryder06]

No... Miller's conclusion was based upon rejecting the logical conclusion that if Jesus himself who was smarter than he was didn't know and the authors of the Bible that came after Jesus didn't know then how could he know?

Did Jesus say no man shall ever know the day nor the hour?

The ones that went back to denominations or left were smarter than the ones that formed a church and used theology from people who caused such a huge problem in the first place.

Again, learn your history. They didn't use bad theology to start the church. The went back to see where they made their mistake.

I would contend most of those who started the SDA church were duped by this prophecy and the IJ does nothing to make them smarter they still were made to look like fools then.

Such harsh words in regards to people who were truly looking for the coming of the Lord in accordance with their understanding of the bible. And the IJ isn't about looking smarter, but about understanding what actually happened in 1844.

We don't see any major denominations playing this Jesus coming prediction game at all... just groups like the SDA and I believe the JW's also have some of their theology based upon this crowd too... ironically.
Superior is the correct word when you equate others understanding as inferior.

Again, know your history. When did the SDA church set a time for Jesus to return? And superior is wrong. I don't understand why you're so bent on portraying us as something we're not. There are plenty of individuals who hold the same views as us in regards to prophecy. It's something the reformers started that we're simply carrying on with.

 

[Stryder06]

we went over this in the first 100 pages of this thread, the sacrifice is more typified by the annointing and commissioning of the temple/tabernacle, however it extends to all the sacrifice of the old covenant. The problem is your prophet has stated that it is not finished, disregarding the drumbeat of ephapax throughout the book of Hebrews, in order to have the crutch for her belief which she doesn't want to let go of. The first part of her career was largely an apology for the 1844 that eventually morphed into the defense of the unsubstantiable IJ doctrine in the later parts especially with her Conflict of the Ages series which for some strange reason presupposes a Zoroastrian style duotheism and not the Biblical monotheism.

I can't help what you went over in the first 100 pages. The fact is that you're making the sacrifice mean something it doesn't. This is why I told Victor that the IJ is in the sanctuary. Gain a proper understanding of that service and it all makes sense after that. Turn Christ's sacrifice into something it isn't, and you'll remain confused.

 

[Keachian]

I don't see how a group of people on their own could ever go to the lengths that they did believing Jesus would return without someone convincing them of the future which IMO... is the job description of a prophet.

White wasn't instrumental in the lead up to the Great Disappointment, I'll grant them that, however she was instrumental in the first apology afterwards and the leadership of the Little Flock and their adherence to Shut-Door theology which because they grew was eventually abandonned in favour of the IJ

 

[Keachian]

I can't help what you went over in the first 100 pages. The fact is that you're making the sacrifice mean something it doesn't. This is why I told Victor that the IJ is in the sanctuary. Gain a proper understanding of that service and it all makes sense after that. Turn Christ's sacrifice into something it isn't, and you'll remain confused.

Oh go complain to the Writer of Hebrews, he is very specific, and very explicit in what he says, your traditions are getting in the way. The simple fact is that the IJ conflicts with the climax and entire pastoral need for the Epistle in the first place.

 

[VictorC]

The 'Investigative Judgment'? Sure we can consider this from the Scripture [and see the various phases of "the Judgment", this being one portion of it], we can begin with Genesis with Adam/Eve..., then unto their children - Cain and Abel, then unto the Flood in the days of Noe, then unto the Tower of Babel, then unto Job, then unto Sodom and Gomorrah in the days of Abraham, then unto the children of Israel in the days of Moses, then we can leap forward past several others for brevity's sake, and head right to the time of Jerusalem in the days of Jesus Christ, and in that which He [Jesus] taught, and forward more still unto the Apostles after Him [Jesus] and finally unto the Revelation and see it in every such place. For in Genesis we see the 'seed' of it, which is carried throughout, and in fact in Genesis, we see the 'seed' of every single Seventh Day Adventist position. Then we can consider the Sanctuary itself, its purposes:

Thy way, O God, [is] in the sanctuary: who [is so] great a God as [our] God? Psalms 77:13

The mere mention of the book of Genesis shows that you're misrepresenting the SDA Investigative Judgment doctrine.

• Convened only after 1844, 'it is...in 1844...to perform the work of investigative judgment'

 

[Stryder06]

I am aware of how useless it is to try and convince you that you are wrong, but the truth must stand without the attacks on it from those who have been duped.

I am a bit stubborn

I have detailed my understanding of the IJ numerous times, both with why I don't agree with it and without, always asking where my errors in understanding are and yet I have not been answered.

You've been answered. You just don't like the answer you've been given. It's one thing to disagree with a doctrine. It's another to continue to say it's something that it isn't. If you've convinced yourself that it means one thing while we're telling you it means another, you can't be helped.

I don't think it matters what she believed of herself, your doctrinal statement says that she is a prophet, therefore when you said that there were no prophets at the time of the Great Disappointment you are contradicting what you believe. This is a smokescreen to try and backpedal.

Did it say she was a prophet, or that the Spirit of Prophecy was manifested in the church, chiefly through her ministry? Again, if you're going to convince yourself of one thing despite what is being said, then you can't be helped.

 

[VictorC]

Brother, if you will please allow me a bit of time inbetween responses and posts? as there are more pressing matters to attend to throughout the day, especially in the field of ministry...

...many souls hungering for the Word of God, asking questions, needing answers, hurting and needing someone to speak with and pray with, lonely souls locked away in cells, that need the light of Jesus Christs gospel and the truth He brings...

...thousands brother... many thousands...

Let us consider a moment then, why the need for the investigation process, like any parolee out on grace and good faith...:

Sins are forgiven - that is covered by the blood of the Lamb, or as it says elsehwere the sins are thrown into the depth of the sea [again covered], but they are not gone, but norn away, and merely covered by the waves of the sea, or covered by the blood. These can be reinstated to our account.

Matthew 18:23-35, and elsewhere, like Ezekiel, etc, shares this quite well, in that sins can be forgiven by God, though it costs dearly, but forgiveness does not blot them out, therefore they are not totally gone, merely covered in grace until such time to be removed or reinstated, since they are reinstated upon the one that had not mercy during his probation of grace in forgiveness, this is the perfect example.

Sins are to be blotted out, even as foretold in the type given us by Jesus Himself, in Leviticus 16 and 23, the Day of Atonement. That is that they were covered, and then through another atonement distinct from the Leviticus 4 atonement, are then totally removed, gone forever, and cannot be reinstated, since it will then be past the time of probation, all cases decided, Luke 13:25, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 22:11, etc.Investigative Judgment is all throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Battle between God and satan in the garden. God gave warning of Judgment about the Tree of knowldge of Good and Evil... Mankind sinned. God came "looking"... [Judgment investigation] asking questions, Where are you, What have you done? [not that God does not know, but there were others, fallen and unfallen in the struggle which began in Heaven, and for Adam's sake]. Judgment sentence [curses, etc]. Judgment executed [cast out of the garden, death, curses, etc].

Battle between God and satan, outside the garden. Cain kills Abel. God comes to Cain "looking"... [Judgment investigation] asking "Where is your brother, the blood cries out, etc." [again not that God does not know, but that everything may be established...]Judgment sentence [curse].Pleas for mercy. Judgment executed [Cain marked, out from the presence of the Lord, etc]

Battle between God and satan, just before the flood, God looks upon the earth at all the wickedness [investigation], pleading with man, Judgment sentence [flood is coming], Judgment executed [Flood comes], Noah saved.

Battle between God and satan, at the tower of Babel. God comes down looking [Judgment investigation, let us go to], Judgment sentence, Judgment executed.

Battle of God and satan, at Sodom and Gomorah, wicked city is carried captive, saved by God through Abraham, but turns again to its ways, God comes down to see [Judgment investigative], Abraham pleads, Judgment sentence [Sodom and Gomorah to be overthrown], Judgment Executed, Lot saved out of it...

etc.... etc... Battle of God and satan, Jesus comes unto His own, they turn against him, Jesus sees with His own eyes [Judgment investigation], the fruitless fig tree, [Judgment sentence], Rome will come and destroy the Temple, years later [Judgment Executed]...

etc... etc...Battle of God and satan, Jesus in Heaven, his people on earth, Christ as Highpriest, we are in the anti-typical day of atonement [day of judgment, are we right with God and men], in the Laodicean church [a judging of the people], even as foretold in the book of Daniel [God is my judge], all of it pointing to Judgment Investigation [Judgment begins at the house of God, beginning with the eldest even unto the least], searching of heart, before Jesus comes, books of records are opened [ask for evidence from scripture], for there is Judgment sentence, and a Judgment execution to come...

...The Hour of His Judgement IS Come, even while the Everlasting Gospel goes forward upon this earth - Revelation 14:6-7...

The misplaced timetable and suggesting that satan isn't the wicked subject to a separate judgment shows that once again you're misrepresenting the Investigative Judgment doctrine.

• Convened only after 1844, 'it is...in 1844...to perform the work of investigative judgment'
• Addresses only the 'professed people of God', and is not a general judgment

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.

 

[VictorC]

I can't help what you went over in the first 100 pages. The fact is that you're making the sacrifice mean something it doesn't. This is why I told Victor that the IJ is in the sanctuary.

You never offered any Biblical support for this doctrine. You didn't even try to.

 

[Sophrosyne]

White wasn't instrumental in the lead up to the Great Disappointment, I'll grant them that, however she was instrumental in the first apology afterwards and the leadership of the Little Flock and their adherence to Shut-Door theology which because they grew was eventually abandonned in favour of the IJ

If she bought into the prophecy I think it makes her a poor candidate to base Church teachings on as the lack of both wisdom and Biblical knowledge should have had her balking at the idea of anyone predicting his coming.

 

[from scratch]

I am a bit stubborn

You've been answered. You just don't like the answer you've been given. It's one thing to disagree with a doctrine. It's another to continue to say it's something that it isn't. If you've convinced yourself that it means one thing while we're telling you it means another, you can't be helped.

I've been reading for a long time. I fail to see any reasonable definitive answer. The real thing for you to think one understands is to take your position as their own. Their is no magic in becoming you that suddenly causes one to be knowledgeable and understand.

 

[Stryder06]

You never offered any Biblical support for this doctrine. You didn't even try to.

I did. The sanctuary is in the bible. That's Exodus. Once you're done there you would need to study the Daniel. Follow that up with Revelation, and you've got the IJ.

 

[from scratch]

It's not that I've stopped trying to defend it. It's that I've decided there's a limit to how much one can say before it becomes useless. My job is not to convict or convience anyone here. I don't mind answering a few questions every now and then, but for some individuals, it won't matter what is said, they simply won't believe. But again, it's not convoluted. You say that because you don't understand it, and you don't want to understand because you have a bias against Adventism.



One can prophecy without being a prophet. Sr White had many gifts. So please answer the question, when did she call herself a prophet. We're not talking about what other people called her, but about what she called herself.

So all you're doing is looking for converts. This is strictly forbidden by the rules.

 

[Stryder06]

I've been reading for a long time. I fail to see any reasonable definitive answer. The real thing for you to think one understands is to take your position as their own. Their is no magic in becoming you that suddenly causes one to be knowledgeable and understand.

Think what you will. It's not atypical for people who hold the same truth to believe the same thing.

 

[from scratch]

Think what you will. It's not atypical for people who hold the same truth to believe the same thing.

:o That is about clear as mud a day old.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's not that I've stopped trying to defend it. It's that I've decided there's a limit to how much one can say before it becomes useless. My job is not to convict or convince anyone here. I don't mind answering a few questions every now and then, but for some individuals, it won't matter what is said, they simply won't believe. But again, it's not convoluted. You say that because you don't understand it, and you don't want to understand because you have a bias against Adventism.

I think you are right in my case. I do have a bias against Seventh Day Adventism. It does not come from any dislike for Adventists or even for some Adventist doctrine but for the system and its foundations. I do not trust nineteenth century prophets nor the systems of dates they invented. My dislike is based on evidence but it is not based on exhaustive understanding of SDA doctrine. So I do not blame you for giving up on some discussions.