The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

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Der Alte

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But if I die, (even in Christ) am I not dead? Perhaps alive in the next world, but quite dead in this one. I'll have a skeleton and everything.

And what of all those who have never, or will never hear of Jesus Christ? All the ancient peoples that lived all over the world. What of them? They've certainly never heard of him. Well, back in their time, I mean.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​
 
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shturt678

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But if I die, (even in Christ) am I not dead? Perhaps alive in the next world, but quite dead in this one. I'll have a skeleton and everything.

And what of all those who have never, or will never hear of Jesus Christ? All the ancient peoples that lived all over the world. What of them? They've certainly never heard of him. Well, back in their time, I mean.

For those that never bumped into the Truth, God nowhere states how he deals with them, ie, hopefully nobody has the Truth on CF so I can be saved like coming thru the fire ending up being the latrine cleaner in glory. :thumbsup: btw no one gets out of here dead dead, ie, all do awake somewhere? ;)
 
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Evergreen48

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Der Alter said:
Okay. I'll play this ridiculous game. Do you have anything but your own opinion that any of the books in the NT are authentic, that Jesus or any other person in the NT actually said the words attributed to them?


By faith I accept that the NT writings are authentic.


I mean after all you can't truthfully say that Jesus said any of the words attributed to him in the NT, can you?

And I accept by faith that Jesus said the words attributed to him in the NT writings. But the the words in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus are not actually attributed to him. No where is it recorded that Jesus was the author of this parable. This is strictly conjecture on the part of the reader, or in your famous words, "assumption and presupposition". It has been shown that the Jews of Jesus' day had several myths and beliefs that were not supported by scripture, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus has all the earmarks of just such as this; even showing signs that it has its roots in pagan belief.

IMO, it is quite ridiculous to base one's entire belief on the subject of "the literality of hell" on only one passage of scriptures, especially since it has been pointed out that it is not a sure thing that Jesus even spoke the words contained therein.
 
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he-man

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Wrong! Hell did not mean grave in Koine, and it does not mean grave in modern English. Definition of HELL [from online Merriam-Webster dictionary
I thank you for your attempt to de rationalize the word, however, Let us use the Koine Greek like you quoted from 21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[שאול]/sheol] and not the superstitous transfer of ancient and modern day verbage.
Do you not understand the difference between quoting the definition of a Greek word from a lexicon and copy/pasting almost an entire post from a commentary?
Do you not understand the differance between a modern day dictionary and Koine Greek?
Where do you think the commentator got his information if not from a lexicon?
Chaff is not tares.
You can lead a horse to water..but you are grasping at straws of red herring :doh:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
The enemy is the adversary, i.e. devil, not men. It states that right in the verse.
39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So, again, I repeat Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned
 
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Der Alte

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By faith I accept that the NT writings are authentic.


And I accept by faith that Jesus said the words attributed to him in the NT writings. But the the words in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus are not actually attributed to him. No where is it recorded that Jesus was the author of this parable. This is strictly conjecture on the part of the reader, or in your famous words, "assumption and presupposition". It has been shown that the Jews of Jesus' day had several myths and beliefs that were not supported by scripture, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus has all the earmarks of just such as this; even showing signs that it has its roots in pagan belief.

IMO, it is quite ridiculous to base one's entire belief on the subject of "the literality of hell" on only one passage of scriptures, especially since it has been pointed out that it is not a sure thing that Jesus even spoke the words contained therein.

Absurd argument. IOW any statement that is not preceded by the words "Jesus said" you can arbitrarily toss out as not being spoken by Jesus?

Luke 16:19-31 is just as certainly spoken by Jesus as vss. 16-18. They are all preceded by the words "And he said unto them," in vs. 15. And Luke 17:1 which immediately follows Luke 16:31, begins "Then said he unto the disciples, ...." The "He" speaking to His disciples is clearly Jesus, although it does not mention His name. That word "Then", Greek [SIZE="+1"]δέ[/SIZE] inarguably connects Jesus speaking to His disciples with what immediately precedes. You are free to believe any nonsense you care to but without manuscript evidence, which shows Luke 16:19-31 to be spurious you can never prove that Jesus was not speaking in those verses. And all the manuscripts show that passage. There are no textual variations, whatsoever.

Luk 16:15-20
(15)
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
(16) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(17) And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
(18) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,​
 
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Hillsage

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But if I die, (even in Christ) am I not dead? Perhaps alive in the next world, but quite dead in this one. I'll have a skeleton and everything.
Yes, yes, yes dead as a door nail because of SIN...'Christian' and 'non Christian' alike. So what do you think makes this 'resurrection' of 'sinning saints' and 'unsaved sinners' possible? Why, the death Jesus, who died FOR ALL according to many scriptures.

HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERY ONE.

And what of all those who have never, or will never hear of Jesus Christ? All the ancient peoples that lived all over the world. What of them? They've certainly never heard of him. Well, back in their time, I mean.
Great question and some of us have an answer that makes sense, we think. ;)
 
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he-man

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Luke 16:19-31 is just as certainly spoken by Jesus as vss. 16-18. They are all preceded by the words "And he said unto them," in vs. 15. And Luke 17:1 which immediately follows Luke 16:31, begins "Then said he unto the disciples, ...." The "He" speaking to His disciples is clearly Jesus, although it does not mention His name. That word "Then", Greek [SIZE=+1]δέ[/SIZE] inarguably connects Jesus speaking to His disciples with what immediately precedes. You are free to believe any nonsense you care to but without manuscript evidence, which shows Luke 16:19-31 to be spurious you can never prove that Jesus was not speaking in those verses. And all the manuscripts show that passage. There are no textual variations, whatsoever.every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
:doh:Joh 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

Lazarus (Lazaros). See note on Luk_16:20 for the name of another man in the parable, a shortened form of Eleazer, only other N.T. use, but in Josephus and rabbinical writings. No connexion between this Lazarus and the one in the parable.
 
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Der Alte

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DA said:
Again what the word hell may have meant in some other culture centuries ago is irrelevant. What does it mean today?.

To which you replied.

3]The same as it did in Koine. GRAVE

And I responded "Hell [the English word] did not mean grave in koine and it does not mean grave in modern English."

The Tares and the Wheat
(Mt 13:24-30, 36-43 Matthew 13:36-42 (ASV)
. . . 39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

I thank you for your attempt to de rationalize the word, however, Let us use the Koine Greek like you quoted from 21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[שאול]/sheol] and not the superstitous transfer of ancient and modern day verbage. Do you not understand the differance between a modern day dictionary and Koine Greek?

I attempted to derationalize nothing. See the previous post, above. Perhaps you intended to say Hades meant the grave. But the word I was talking about was the English word "hell" for which you had posted some discussion of what it meant in some long ago scandinavian culture. My reply is above. If there is any "superstitous [sic] transfer of ancient and modern day verbage.[sic]" it was by you

Where do you think the commentator got his information if not from a lexicon? You can lead a horse to water..but you are grasping at straws of red herring 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

Wrong, the verse I was addressing in my previous post was Matt 13:39.

39 and the enemy [the men] that sowed them is the adversary: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

Note you have inserted the word [the men] where the verse clearly states that "the enemy that sowed them [the tares] is the adversary" Jesus had told a parable about tares and wheat, vss. 24-30. When Jesus and his disciples were alone, vs. 36, they asked Jesus to explain the parable. Vs. 39 is part of that explanation. In the parable, the enemy were evil men who sowed tares. In the explanation the enemy was the adversary. The Hebrew word "Satan" means adversary.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff [SIZE="+1"]ἄχυρον[/SIZE] with unquenchable fire.

G892 [SIZE="+1"]ἄχυρον[/SIZE] achuron akh'-oo-ron
Perhaps remotely from χέω cheō (to shed forth); chaff (as diffusive): - chaff.

H4671 [SIZE="+1"]מוץ מץ[/SIZE] môts môts motes, motes
From H4160; chaff (as pressed out, that is, winnowed or (rather) threshed loose): - chaff.

G2215 [SIZE="+1"]ζιζάνιον[/SIZE] zizanion
dziz-an'-ee-on
Of uncertain origin; darnel or false grain: - tares.​

Chaff and tares are not the same thing.

39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So, again, I repeat Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned

Still waiting for Mat 11:25a to happen.
 
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he-man

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I attempted to derationalize nothing. See the previous post, above. Perhaps you intended to say Hades meant the grave. But the word I was talking about was the English word "hell" for which you had posted some discussion of what it meant in some long ago scandinavian culture. My reply is above. If there is any "superstitous [sic] transfer of ancient and modern day verbage.[sic]" it was by you
Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).
Wrong, the verse I was addressing in my previous post was Matt 13:39.
When Jesus and his disciples were alone, vs. 36, they asked Jesus to explain the parable. Vs. 39 is part of that explanation. In the parable, the enemy were evil men who sowed tares. In the explanation the enemy was the adversary. The Hebrew word "Satan" means adversary.
Matt 13:39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff [SIZE=+1]ἄχυρον[/SIZE] with unquenchable fire.
Chaff and tares are not the same thing.
:doh:[מוץ] H4671
nm. chaff, hayseed, tailing the residue of something, especially ore. grain or flour of inferior quality. Concise Oxford English Dictionary

G2215 ζειζάνια ζιζάνιο lolium, loli, n. darnel/lolium; (grass found as weed in grain); (mistakenly) cockle, tares;
JM Latin-English Dictionary


38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

Ecc_9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
 
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Der Alte

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Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).
Matt 13:39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[מוץ] H4671
nm. chaff, hayseed, tailing the residue of something, especially ore. grain or flour of inferior quality. Concise Oxford English Dictionary

G2215 ζειζάνια ζιζάνιο lolium, loli, n. darnel/lolium; (grass found as weed in grain); (mistakenly) cockle, tares;
JM Latin-English Dictionary

38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

Ecc_9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

To which you replied.

And I responded "Hell [the English word] did not mean grave in koine and it does not mean grave in modern English."

I attempted to derationalize nothing. See the previous post, above. Perhaps you intended to say Hades meant the grave. But the word I was talking about was the English word "hell" for which you had posted some discussion of what it meant in some long ago scandinavian culture. My reply is above. If there is any "superstitous [sic] transfer of ancient and modern day verbage.[sic]" it was by you

Wrong, the verse I was addressing in my previous post was Matt 13:39.

Note you have inserted the word [the men] where the verse clearly states that "the enemy that sowed them [the tares] is the adversary" Jesus had told a parable about tares and wheat, vss. 24-30. When Jesus and his disciples were alone, vs. 36, they asked Jesus to explain the parable. Vs. 39 is part of that explanation. In the parable, the enemy were evil men who sowed tares. In the explanation the enemy was the adversary. The Hebrew word "Satan" means adversary.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff [SIZE="+1"]ἄχυρον[/SIZE] with unquenchable fire.

G892 [SIZE="+1"]ἄχυρον[/SIZE] achuron akh'-oo-ron
Perhaps remotely from χέω cheō (to shed forth); chaff (as diffusive): - chaff.

H4671 [SIZE="+1"]מוץ מץ[/SIZE] môts môts motes, motes
From H4160; chaff (as pressed out, that is, winnowed or (rather) threshed loose): - chaff.

G2215 [SIZE="+1"]ζιζάνιον[/SIZE] zizanion
dziz-an'-ee-on
Of uncertain origin; darnel or false grain: - tares.​

Chaff and tares are not the same thing.

Still waiting for Mat 11:25a to happen.
 
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shturt678

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Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).
Matt 13:39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

:doh:[מוץ] H4671
nm. chaff, hayseed, tailing the residue of something, especially ore. grain or flour of inferior quality. Concise Oxford English Dictionary

G2215 ζειζάνια ζιζάνιο lolium, loli, n. darnel/lolium; (grass found as weed in grain); (mistakenly) cockle, tares;
JM Latin-English Dictionary


38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;

Ecc_9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Hades, Deut.32:22; Acts2:27 = hell and in torments until the Lake of fire where both the body and the soul tormented without any access to pain meds. for eternity. :amen:
 
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he-man

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And I responded "Hell [the English word] did not mean grave in koine and it does not mean grave in modern English."
HELL Pages 1037-38
HELL. This is the word generally and unfortunately used by our translators to render the Hebrew Sheol or: "αιδης, and once θανατος, 2 Sam. xxii. 6 : Inferi or Inferna, or sometimes Mors). We say unfortunately, because — although, as St. Augustine truly asserts, Sheol, with its equivalents Inferi and Hades, are never used in a good sense (De Gen. ad Lit. xii. 33), yet —the English word Hell is mixed up with numberless associations entirely foreign to the minds of the ancient Hebrews.

It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by " the grave " or " the pit."

Ewald accepts Luther's word Holle; even Untewelt, which is suggested by De Wette, involves conceptions too human for the purpose. Passing over the derivations suggested by older writers, it is now generally agreed that the word comes from the root, "to make hollow" (comp. Germ. Holle, "hell," with Hohle, "a hollow "), and therefore means the vast hollow subterranean resting-place which is the common receptacle of the dead

(Ges. Thes. p. 1348; Bottcher, de Inferis, c. iv. p. 137 fF.; Ewald, ad Ps. p. 42). It is deep (Job xi. 8) and dark (Job x. 21, 22), in the centre of the earth (Num. xvi. 30; Deut. xxxii. 22), having within it depths on depths (Prov. ix. 18), and fastened with gates (Is. xxxviii. 10) and bars (Job xvii. 16). Some have fancied (as Jahn, Arch. Bibl. § 203, Eng. ed.) that the Jews, like the Greeks, believed in infernal rivers: thus Clemens Alex, defines Gehenna as " a river of fire " (Fragm. 38), and expressly compares it to the fiery rivers of Tartarus (Strom, v. 14, 92); and TertuUian says that it was supposed to resemble Pyriphlegethon (Apolog. cap. xlvii.).

The notion, however, is not found in Scripture, for Ps. xviii. 5 is a mere metaphor. It is clear that in many passages of the O. T. Sheol can only mean " the grave," and is so rendered in the A. V. (see, for example, Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38; 1 Sam. ii. 6; Job xiv. 13).

In other passages, however, it seems to involve a notion of punishment, and is therefore rendered in the A. V. by the word " Hell." But in many cases this translation misleads the reader. It is obvious, for instance, that Job xi. 8; Ps. cxxxix. 8; Am. ix. 2 (where " hell " is used as the antithesis of "heaven"), merely illustrate the Jewish notion of the locality of Sheol in the bowels of the earth.

Even Ps. ix. 17, Prov. xv. 24, v. 5, ix. 18, seem to refer rather to the danger of terrible and precipitate death than to a place of infernal anguish.
In the N. T. the word Hades (like Sheol) sometimes means merely "the grave" (Rev. xx. 13; Acts ii. 31; 1 Cor. xv. 55), or in general "the unseen world." It is in this sense that the creeds say of our Lord κατηλθεν εν αδη) orεις αδου, descendit ad inferos, or inferna, meaning " the state of the dead in general, without any restriction of happiness or misery" (Beveridge on Art. iii.), a doctrine certainly, though only virtually, expressed in Scripture (Eph. iv. 9; Acts ii. 25-31).

Similarly Josephus uses Hades as the name of the place whence the soul of Samuel was evoked (Ant. vi. 14,HELL)
§ 2). Elsewhere in the N. T. Hades is used of a place of torment (Luke xvi. 23; 2 Pet. ii. 4; Matt,
xi. 23, Ac). Consequently it has been the prevalent, almost the universal, notion that Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, divided into two parts, one the abode of the blessed and the other of the lost. This was the belief of the Jews after the exile, who gave to the places the names of Paradise and Gehenna (Joseph. Ant. xviii. 1, § 3; cf. Otho, Lex. Rabb. s. vv.),

In holding this view, main reliance is placed on the parable of Dives and Lazarus; but it is impossible to ground the proof of an important theological doctrine on a passage which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphors. " Theologia paraabolica non est demonstrativa " is a rule too valuable to be forgotten ; and if we are to turn rhetoric into logic, and build a dogma on every metaphor, our belief will be of a vague and contradictory character. Dogmatism on this topic appears to be peculiarly misplaced. DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
IWrong, the verse I was addressing in my previous post was Matt 13:39. Note you have inserted the word [the men] where the verse clearly states that "the enemy that sowed them [the tares] is the adversary" Jesus had told a parable about tares and wheat, vss. 24-30. When Jesus and his disciples were alone, vs. 36, they asked Jesus to explain the parable. Vs. 39 is part of that explanation. In the parable, the enemy were evil men who sowed tares. In the explanation the enemy was the adversary. Chaff and tares are not the same thing.
Name: "Hades" "Originally proper noun, god of the nether world, 'Hades,' then the nether world ... as a place of the dead" (BDAG3).

Matt 13:39. But while men slept, a man, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way—(See on Mt 13:38, 39).[DARBY][Codex Sinaiticus]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

:doh:[מוץ] H4671
nm. chaff, hayseed, tailing the residue of something, especially ore. grain or flour of inferior quality. Concise Oxford English Dictionary

G2215 ζειζάνια ζιζάνιο lolium, loli, n. darnel/lolium; (grass found as weed in grain); (mistakenly) cockle, tares;
JM Latin-English Dictionary

38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the wicked;
 
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Der Alte

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HELL Pages 1037-38
HELL. This is the word generally and unfortunately used by our translators to render the Hebrew Sheol or: "αιδης, and once θανατος, 2 Sam. xxii. 6 : Inferi or Inferna, or sometimes Mors). We say unfortunately, because — although, as St. Augustine truly asserts, Sheol, with its equivalents Inferi and Hades, are never used in a good sense (De Gen. ad Lit. xii. 33), yet —the English word Hell is mixed up with numberless associations entirely foreign to the minds of the ancient Hebrews. . . .

Does all this have a purpose? While these views are somewhat interesting, if one wants to know what the Jews believed about Hell, consult Jewish sources. As you can see, contrary to your sources, the ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it both sheol and Gehenna. Scripture highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
 
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he-man

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Does all this have a purpose?
Yeah!
HELL Pages 1037-38
HELL. This is the word generally and unfortunately used by our translators to render the Hebrew Sheol or: "αιδης, and once θανατος, 2 Sam. xxii. 6 : Inferi or Inferna, or sometimes Mors). We say unfortunately, because — although, as St. Augustine truly asserts, Sheol, with its equivalents Inferi and Hades, are never used in a good sense (De Gen. ad Lit. xii. 33), yet —the English word Hell is mixed up with numberless associations entirely foreign to the minds of the ancient Hebrews.

It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by " the grave " or " the pit."

Consequently it has been the prevalent, almost the universal, notion that Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, divided into two parts, one the abode of the blessed and the other of the lost. This was the belief of the Jews after the exile, who gave to the places the names of Paradise and Gehenna (Joseph. Ant. xviii. 1, § 3; cf. Otho, Lex. Rabb. s. vv.),

In holding this view, main reliance is placed on the parable of Dives and Lazarus; but it is impossible to ground the proof of an important theological doctrine on a passage which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphors. " Theologia paraabolica non est demonstrativa " is a rule too valuable to be forgotten ; and if we are to turn rhetoric into logic, and build a dogma on every metaphor, our belief will be of a vague and contradictory character. Dogmatism on this topic appears to be peculiarly misplaced. DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
 
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Der Alte

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HELL Pages 1037-38
HELL. This is the word generally and unfortunately used by our translators to render the Hebrew Sheol or: "αιδης, and once θανατος, 2 Sam. xxii. 6 : Inferi or Inferna, or sometimes Mors). We say unfortunately, because — although, as St. Augustine truly asserts, Sheol, with its equivalents Inferi and Hades, are never used in a good sense (De Gen. ad Lit. xii. 33), yet —the English word Hell is mixed up with numberless associations entirely foreign to the minds of the ancient Hebrews.

It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by " the grave " or " the pit."

Consequently it has been the prevalent, almost the universal, notion that Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, divided into two parts, one the abode of the blessed and the other of the lost. This was the belief of the Jews after the exile, who gave to the places the names of Paradise and Gehenna (Joseph. Ant. xviii. 1, § 3; cf. Otho, Lex. Rabb. s. vv.),

In holding this view, main reliance is placed on the parable of Dives and Lazarus; but it is impossible to ground the proof of an important theological doctrine on a passage which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphors. " Theologia paraabolica non est demonstrativa " is a rule too valuable to be forgotten ; and if we are to turn rhetoric into logic, and build a dogma on every metaphor, our belief will be of a vague and contradictory character. Dogmatism on this topic appears to be peculiarly misplaced. DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE

Repeating false 19th century rhetoric doesn't make it any truer as I have shown with irrefutable historical evidence. Here is similar information from the Talmud.

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again."

The school of Hillel
says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].


Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
 
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Der Alter said:
Absurd argument. IOW any statement that is not preceded by the words "Jesus said" you can arbitrarily toss out as not being spoken by Jesus?
Those are your 'other words', they are not my "other words".
In view of the evidence that is presented against verses 19-31 having been spoken by Jesus, it would not amount to one "arbitrarily toss[ing] out" anything, as my opinion is supported by that evidence.


Luke 16:19-31 is just as certainly spoken by Jesus as vss. 16-18. They are all preceded by the words "And he said unto them," in vs. 15. And Luke 17:1 which immediately follows Luke 16:31, begins "Then said he unto the disciples, ...." The "He" speaking to His disciples is clearly Jesus, although it does not mention His name. That word "Then", Greek δέ inarguably connects Jesus speaking to His disciples with what immediately precedes.

The problem lies within the fact that Luke 16: 19-31 is not preceded by δέ , so there is a disconnect there, as these verses are in no way connected to the preceding ones . And verses 16, 17 & 18 are not preceded by δέ either, so that brings that whole passage of scriptures; 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18, into an even further quandary.

This chain of parables of which it is said that Jesus spoke them, begin in chapter 15, and end with the 13th verse of the 16th chapter. Although Verses 14, 15, 16, 17, & 18 are not preceded by, "And he said " or "Jesus said", there is not a problem with believing that these were the words of Jesus because they are also referenced elsewhere in the scriptures as having been said by Jesus. However, there is no reference to verses 19-31 anywhere else in the scriptures.

You are free to believe any nonsense you care to but without manuscript evidence, which shows Luke 16:19-31 to be spurious you can never prove that Jesus was not speaking in those verses.

And you can never prove that Jesus said the words which are written in Luke 16:19 - 31 because the scripture does not speak that he did say those words. And the evidence which has been brought forward is in favor of his not having spoken the parable in Luke 16:19-31.

And all the manuscripts show that passage. There are no textual variations, whatsoever

And have you have seen all the manuscripts under consideration here? If you have not, and I highly suspect that you have not, then your statement that "all the manuscripts show that passage" is merely assumption and presupposition on your part.
 
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Der Alter

What kind of torment do you suppose the lost person receives in the LOF? What type of body will they recieve or is it your belief it is more of a mental type of torment? Rev says that Hell was even cast into the LOF. If hell is fire then are you saying hell fire was thrown into the Lake of Fire? Very confusing to me just even following that train of Logic. Please explain do not want to put words in your mouth?
 
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he-man

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Repeating false 19th century rhetoric doesn't make it any truer as I have shown with irrefutable historical evidence. Here is similar information from the Talmud.
My post does not disagree with what you posted. It simply states the reason why Jews believed what they believed which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphors.

Consequently it has been the prevalent, almost the universal, notion that Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, divided into two parts, one the abode of the blessed and the other of the lost. This was the belief of the Jews after the exile, who gave to the places the names of Paradise and Gehenna (Joseph. Ant. xviii. 1, § 3; cf. Otho, Lex. Rabb. s. vv.),

In holding this view, main reliance is placed on the parable of Dives and Lazarus; but it is impossible to ground the proof of an important theological doctrine on a passage which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphors. " Theologia paraabolica non est demonstrativa " is a rule too valuable to be forgotten ; and if we are to turn rhetoric into logic, and build a dogma on every metaphor, our belief will be of a vague and contradictory character. Dogmatism on this topic appears to be peculiarly misplaced. DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE

It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by " the grave " or " the pit." DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE
 
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