The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Der Alte]

...Mathew 25:46- Correct there is an Eternal Punsishment not an enduring punishing.

So I guess the righteous on Jesus' right hand only have "eternal life" not enduring living? You are making a nonsensical distinction which does not exist in either Greek or English.

You add to the scripture with this reference below with no verses to support it; starting with that meant etc:

"When Jesus said Eternal Punishment that meant something that they consciously experienced eternally"

I explained what I meant. Please try reading my post. It does not matter what kind of word games 21st century Westerners play with the words "eternal" and "punishment" Many in Jesus audience did not believe in the resurrection, i.e. the Sadduccees and their followers. They knew that everbody, no exceptions, died and it had nothing to do with punishment. When Jesus said "punishment" they would not have thought he meant death.

What Early Church are you referring too? If the church at antioch then not correct; don't put stock in the ECF's.

Yes, let's just ignore hundreds of year of church history written by native Greek speaking Christians, because their writings torpedo the teachings of religious groups that did not exist until the 1800s.

 

[Timothew]

After this "death" results in hell where one's soul is tormented day and night, ie, mentally, awaiting their new body to join their soul to suffer the second death in the lake of fire tormented both inwardly and outwardly for forever and ever.

The trouble with this is that the Bible never says that eternal torment in hell follows death. But the Bible does say over and over that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If the wicked are kept "alive" in hell following their "death", then they are never "destroyed" and they can't be said to be "no more". They would "be" forevermore in hell. But this can't be, because the Bible specifically says that the wicked will be no more.

A person who suffers the second death, dies a second time. This is after the resurrection on the final day, so there is no resurrection from the second death. There is no chance of recovery. If a person dies the second death, they remain dead (which means that they are not alive and conscious) forever.

This is simply what the Bible says. Some people say that the Church could not have gotten this wrong. Whichever way you stand on the reformation, the reformation proves that the Church CAN "get it wrong". Since the mainstream church disagrees with the Bible which clearly states that the wages of sin is death (and therefore not eternal torment), we know that the Church has gotten it wrong. We need to fix it. We need to abandon the false doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment.

Nothing Der Alter and others have said proves that people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead. The Bible also never says that people go to eternal conscious torment after they die. The Bible does say that the wicked perish and those who put their trust in God will have eternal life.
It's time to put away the fairy tales.

 

[he-man]

The trouble with this is that the Bible never says that eternal torment in hell follows death. But the Bible does say over and over that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If the wicked are kept "alive" in hell following their "death", then they are never "destroyed" and they can't be said to be "no more". They would "be" forevermore in hell. But this can't be, because the Bible specifically says that the wicked will be no more.

A person who suffers the second death, dies a second time. This is after the resurrection on the final day, so there is no resurrection from the second death. There is no chance of recovery. If a person dies the second death, they remain dead (which means that they are not alive and conscious) forever.

This is simply what the Bible says. Some people say that the Church could not have gotten this wrong. Whichever way you stand on the reformation, the reformation proves that the Church CAN "get it wrong". Since the mainstream church disagrees with the Bible which clearly states that the wages of sin is death (and therefore not eternal torment), we know that the Church has gotten it wrong. We need to fix it. We need to abandon the false doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment.

Nothing Der Alter and others have said proves that people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead. The Bible also never says that people go to eternal conscious torment after they die. The Bible does say that the wicked perish and those who put their trust in God will have eternal life.
It's time to put away the fairy tales.

Now Der Alter does not even respond to my Post #399

And now a few more comments from various sources:

Hebrews 10:37(37) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
(38) Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

2 Pet. ii. I, 3 'Who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (αιρεσεις απώλεια&#962. . .and bring upon themselves swift destruction (απώλεια&#957...and their damnation (απώλει&#945 slumbereth not': Pp.44 Lightfoot Revision of the English Version NT

Mt 7:13, 26:8; Mk 14:4; Joh 17:12; Act 8:20; Ro 9:22; Phl 1:28, 3:19; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2Pe 2:1,3,3:7,16; Rev 17:8, 11:2

Strong G684 From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal)

Louw-Nida Lexicon Violence, Harm, Destroy, Kill

All of the following translations support "THE SON OF DESTRUCTION":
MOUNCE NCV NET NIRV NIV NLT VOICE WEB YLT ESV HCSB PHILLIPS LEB MSG

John 17:12 I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled. International Standard Version (©2012)
Footnotes:John 17:12 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament.
Cross references:John 17:12 : Ps. 41:9; John 6:70.

(CEB)12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[a] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Final Days - Jeremiah 23:20 The Man of Lawlessness The Man of Sin is also called the Man of Lawlessness in some bible translations. He is then also referred to as the son of destruction or perdition in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book IV: For they have heard in the commandment that "the broad and wide way leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in by it."[40]

Clementine Homily XVIII: `Behold, I have set before thy face the way of life and the way of death.' And the Teacher spoke in harmony with this:[26]

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews: On this same subject, according to Matthew: "How broad and spacious is the way which leadeth unto death, and many there are who go in thereby: how straight and narrow is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that find it!"[412]

Didache: one of life and one of death;[3]

Hippolytus Exegetical Fragments: "And they went out at privy doors; "showing thus by anticipation, that he who desires to partake of the water in the garden must renounce the broad gate, and enter by the strait and narrow.[215]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: Concerning these, it is said, the Saviour has expressly declared that "straight and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there are that enter upon it; whereas broad and spacious is the way that leadeth unto destruction, and many there are that pass through it."[120]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: On account of this, he says, Jesus uses the words, "I am the true gate."[88]

Tertullian Against Marcion Book II: But who, when so many incentives to evil were assailing him, would desire that good, which he could despise with impunity? Who, again, would take care of what he could lose without danger? You read how broad is the road to evil,[170]

Tertullian On Fasting: More easily, it may be, through the "strait gate"[123]

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor Book II: Such are the men who believe in their belly, "whose God is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." To them the apostle predicted no good when he said, "whose end is destruction."[54]

Origen Commentary on Matthew Book XI: And do not suppose that Paul said that he was truly God; for just as the belly, though it is not the god of those who prize pleasure too highly, being lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, is said by Paul to be their god,[123]

απώλεια destruction BAG; Ardnt Gingrich Pp. 103;
Louw Nida 32; C Brown Vol 1:462; Kittel Vol 1:396

Εισελθατε δια της στενης πυλης· δτι πλατεια και ευρυχωρος η οδος η απαγουσα εις την απωλειαν, και πολλοι εισιν οι εισερχομενοι δι' αυτης·

Word for word translation:
Go in through the narrow gate; because wide place the gate and broadspaced the way the one leading off into the destruction and many are the ones going in through it.
Greek-English Word Study NT by McReynolds 1998, Tyndale House Publishers

 

[shturt678]

The trouble with this is that the Bible never says that eternal torment in hell follows death. But the Bible does say over and over that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If the wicked are kept "alive" in hell following their "death", then they are never "destroyed" and they can't be said to be "no more". They would "be" forevermore in hell. But this can't be, because the Bible specifically says that the wicked will be no more.

A person who suffers the second death, dies a second time. This is after the resurrection on the final day, so there is no resurrection from the second death. There is no chance of recovery. If a person dies the second death, they remain dead (which means that they are not alive and conscious) forever.

This is simply what the Bible says. Some people say that the Church could not have gotten this wrong. Whichever way you stand on the reformation, the reformation proves that the Church CAN "get it wrong". Since the mainstream church disagrees with the Bible which clearly states that the wages of sin is death (and therefore not eternal torment), we know that the Church has gotten it wrong. We need to fix it. We need to abandon the false doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment.

Nothing Der Alter and others have said proves that people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever as long as they live while they are dead. The Bible also never says that people go to eternal conscious torment after they die. The Bible does say that the wicked perish and those who put their trust in God will have eternal life.
It's time to put away the fairy tales.

The non-inspired Bible translations + IIThess.2:11, 12 say whatever you want the errant and fallible Text to say; however in the Context Jn.5:28, 29, "all in their tombs," all the bodily dead. This statement of Jesus' is the foundation for one resurrection, and that occurring at the last day. Once we dial this in then we can move to Mk.9:43-48; Lk.12:45, etc. and the rest of the forever in torments that comports with other posters on this thread. We're just trying to give you the head's up so that Rom.3:18 (Ps.36:1) regarding have a terror of God not wanting to offend nor provoke Him due to the consequences of where one's abode will be forever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

Now Der Alter does not even respond to my Post #399

And now a few more comments from various sources:

Hebrews 10:37(37) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
(38) Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

2 Pet. ii. I, 3 'Who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (αιρεσεις απώλεια&#962. . .and bring upon themselves swift destruction (απώλεια&#957...and their damnation (απώλει&#945 slumbereth not': Pp.44 Lightfoot Revision of the English Version NT
...
Mt 7:13, 26:8; Mk 14:4; Joh 17:12; Act 8:20; Ro 9:22; Phl 1:28, 3:19; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2Pe 2:1,3,3:7,16; Rev 17:8, 11:2

Strong G684 From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal)

Louw-Nida Lexicon Violence, Harm, Destroy, Kill

All of the following translations support "THE SON OF DESTRUCTION":
MOUNCE NCV NET NIRV NIV NLT VOICE WEB YLT ESV HCSB PHILLIPS LEB MSG

John 17:12 I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled. International Standard Version (©2012)
Footnotes:John 17:12 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament.
Cross references:John 17:12 : Ps. 41:9; John 6:70.

(CEB)12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[a] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Final Days - Jeremiah 23:20 The Man of Lawlessness The Man of Sin is also called the Man of Lawlessness in some bible translations. He is then also referred to as the son of destruction or perdition in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book IV: For they have heard in the commandment that "the broad and wide way leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in by it."[40]

Clementine Homily XVIII: `Behold, I have set before thy face the way of life and the way of death.' And the Teacher spoke in harmony with this:[26]

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews: On this same subject, according to Matthew: "How broad and spacious is the way which leadeth unto death, and many there are who go in thereby: how straight and narrow is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that find it!"[412]

Didache: one of life and one of death;[3]

Hippolytus Exegetical Fragments: "And they went out at privy doors; "showing thus by anticipation, that he who desires to partake of the water in the garden must renounce the broad gate, and enter by the strait and narrow.[215]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: Concerning these, it is said, the Saviour has expressly declared that "straight and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there are that enter upon it; whereas broad and spacious is the way that leadeth unto destruction, and many there are that pass through it."[120]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: On account of this, he says, Jesus uses the words, "I am the true gate."[88]

Tertullian Against Marcion Book II: But who, when so many incentives to evil were assailing him, would desire that good, which he could despise with impunity? Who, again, would take care of what he could lose without danger? You read how broad is the road to evil,[170]

Tertullian On Fasting: More easily, it may be, through the "strait gate"[123]

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor Book II: Such are the men who believe in their belly, "whose God is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." To them the apostle predicted no good when he said, "whose end is destruction."[54]

Origen Commentary on Matthew Book XI: And do not suppose that Paul said that he was truly God; for just as the belly, though it is not the god of those who prize pleasure too highly, being lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, is said by Paul to be their god,[123]

απώλεια destruction BAG; Ardnt Gingrich Pp. 103;
Louw Nida 32; C Brown Vol 1:462; Kittel Vol 1:396

Εισελθατε δια της στενης πυλης· δτι πλατεια και ευρυχωρος η οδος η απαγουσα εις την απωλειαν, και πολλοι εισιν οι εισερχομενοι δι' αυτης·

Word for word translation:
Go in through the narrow gate; because wide place the gate and broadspaced the way the one leading off into the destruction and many are the ones going in through it.
Greek-English Word Study NT by McReynolds 1998, Tyndale House Publishers

My post 360 not responded to.

My post 340 not responded to.

My post 386 not responded to.

“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

...those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, ... (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments . . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)

Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. . . But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

...; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)

If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)

... while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)

From Felix Minucius (226AD)

I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)

From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)

when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)

From Lactantius (307AD)

But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …(“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)

We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

...And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)​

 

[Der Alte]

Now Der Alter does not even respond to my Post #399

And now a few more comments from various sources:

Hebrews 10:37(37) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
(38) Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

2 Pet. ii. I, 3 'Who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (αιρεσεις απώλεια&#962. . .and bring upon themselves swift destruction (απώλεια&#957...and their damnation (απώλει&#945 slumbereth not': Pp.44 Lightfoot Revision of the English Version NT

Mt 7:13, 26:8; Mk 14:4; Joh 17:12; Act 8:20; Ro 9:22; Phl 1:28, 3:19; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2Pe 2:1,3,3:7,16; Rev 17:8, 11:2

Strong G684 From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal)

Louw-Nida Lexicon Violence, Harm, Destroy, Kill

All of the following translations support "THE SON OF DESTRUCTION":
MOUNCE NCV NET NIRV NIV NLT VOICE WEB YLT ESV HCSB PHILLIPS LEB MSG

John 17:12 I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled. International Standard Version (©2012)
Footnotes:John 17:12 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament.
Cross references:John 17:12 : Ps. 41:9; John 6:70.

(CEB)12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[a] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Final Days - Jeremiah 23:20 The Man of Lawlessness The Man of Sin is also called the Man of Lawlessness in some bible translations. He is then also referred to as the son of destruction or perdition in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book IV: For they have heard in the commandment that "the broad and wide way leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in by it."[40]

Clementine Homily XVIII: `Behold, I have set before thy face the way of life and the way of death.' And the Teacher spoke in harmony with this:[26]

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews: On this same subject, according to Matthew: "How broad and spacious is the way which leadeth unto death, and many there are who go in thereby: how straight and narrow is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that find it!"[412]

Didache: one of life and one of death;[3]

Hippolytus Exegetical Fragments: "And they went out at privy doors; "showing thus by anticipation, that he who desires to partake of the water in the garden must renounce the broad gate, and enter by the strait and narrow.[215]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: Concerning these, it is said, the Saviour has expressly declared that "straight and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there are that enter upon it; whereas broad and spacious is the way that leadeth unto destruction, and many there are that pass through it."[120]

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book V: On account of this, he says, Jesus uses the words, "I am the true gate."[88]

Tertullian Against Marcion Book II: But who, when so many incentives to evil were assailing him, would desire that good, which he could despise with impunity? Who, again, would take care of what he could lose without danger? You read how broad is the road to evil,[170]

Tertullian On Fasting: More easily, it may be, through the "strait gate"[123]

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor Book II: Such are the men who believe in their belly, "whose God is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." To them the apostle predicted no good when he said, "whose end is destruction."[54]

Origen Commentary on Matthew Book XI: And do not suppose that Paul said that he was truly God; for just as the belly, though it is not the god of those who prize pleasure too highly, being lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, is said by Paul to be their god,[123]

απώλεια destruction BAG; Ardnt Gingrich Pp. 103;
Louw Nida 32; C Brown Vol 1:462; Kittel Vol 1:396

Εισελθατε δια της στενης πυλης· δτι πλατεια και ευρυχωρος η οδος η απαγουσα εις την απωλειαν, και πολλοι εισιν οι εισερχομενοι δι' αυτης·

Word for word translation:
Go in through the narrow gate; because wide place the gate and broadspaced the way the one leading off into the destruction and many are the ones going in through it.
Greek-English Word Study NT by McReynolds 1998, Tyndale House Publishers

[size=+1]απώλεια[/size], a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense ‘loss’; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .
2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin (so usu. LX X; Ep. Arist. 167; Philo , Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos. , Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; Test. Dan 4:5; but also in Polyb. , Plut. , Epict. et al. [ Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with fqorav ; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247 f paradivdwmi se eij" to; mevlan cavo" ejn t. ajpwleivai" ) Ac 25:16 t.r .; (w. o[leqron) buqivzein eij" o[. kai; aj. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9 ; ei\nai eij" aj. perish Ac 8:20 (Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.
); pro;" t. ijdivan aujtw`n aj. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16 ; ( w. plavnh ) 2 Cl 1:7. Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13 ; eij" aj. uJpavgein go to destr. Rv 17:8 , 11 . ( Opp. peripoivhsi" yuch`" ) Hb 10:39 . ( Opp. swthriva ) Phil 1:28 . hJmevra krivsew" kai; ajpwleiva" (Job 21:30 ) t. ajsebw`n ajnqrwvpwn day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7 . Hence the end of the wicked is described as aj. Phil 3:19 . skeuvh ojrgh`", kathrtismevna eij" aj. objects of ( his ) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16 ). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1 , is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28 , 22 ): oJ qavnato" aj. e[cei aijwvnion Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). Those destined to destruction are uiJoi; th`" aj. J 17:12 ; AP 1:2. The Antichrist is also uiJo;" th`" aj. 2 Th 2:3 . aiJrevsei" ajpwleiva" heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1 ; dovgmata th`" aj. AP 1:1. M-M. *

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek online​

In these vss. [size=+1]απώλεια[/size], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Man’s evil way, 2 Pet 2:2.

 

[Hillsage]

The non-inspired Bible translations + IIThess.2:11, 12 say whatever you want the errant and fallible Text to say;

Surely you are not saying; "Beware of the ‘false profits’ of modern translations. They have many ‘grave’ misconceptions in them."...ARE YOU???

however in the Context Jn.5:28, 29, "all in their tombs," all the bodily dead. This statement of Jesus' is the foundation for one resurrection, and that occurring at the last day.

And it is 'A' judgment based upon doing "good and evil" in those fleshly bodies....Did I hear you say "Ouch" Jack! ...No, wait a minute...it was me.

Once we dial this in then we can move to Mk.9:43-48; Lk.12:45, etc. and the rest of the forever in torments that comports with other posters on this thread. We're just trying to give you the head's up so that Rom.3:18 (Ps.36:1) regarding have a terror of God not wanting to offend nor provoke Him due to the consequences of where one's abode will be forever and ever.

I always say scripture can be read 'literally, symbolically or spiritually. Especially if we're rightly dividing the subject into spirit, soul or body when dealing with salvation. Mark 9 is metaphorical in my book, since I'm not going to castrate myself like the poor distraught young man I visited in the psych ward. His parents went to our church and asked me to go talk to him. I later invited him to join a group of young men I was mentoring at the time. He actually got saved and is married now. Thank goodness his eyes 'opened' when he was about to sever the bloody testicles in his hand. He also has a son. IOW I don't take this passage literally. And OBVIOUSLY neither does the church.

LUK 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

As far as Luke is concerned don't leave out the next 'in context' verse.
LUK 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion/meros with the unbelievers.

REV 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part/meros in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those Christians who think they are going to escape the judgmental fires of God, don't need a better translation they just need to reread the old one, no matter how milk toast it is.

 

[shturt678]

Surely you are not saying; "Beware of the ‘false profits’ of modern translations. They have many ‘grave’ misconceptions in them."...ARE YOU???

And it is 'A' judgment based upon doing "good and evil" in those fleshly bodies....Did I hear you say "Ouch" Jack! ...No, wait a minute...it was me.

I always say scripture can be read 'literally, symbolically or spiritually. Especially if we're rightly dividing the subject into spirit, soul or body when dealing with salvation. Mark 9 is metaphorical in my book, since I'm not going to castrate myself like the poor distraught young man I visited in the psych ward. His parents went to our church and asked me to go talk to him. I later invited him to join a group of young men I was mentoring at the time. He actually got saved and is married now. Thank goodness his eyes 'opened' when he was about to sever the bloody testicles in his hand. He also has a son. IOW I don't take this passage literally. And OBVIOUSLY neither does the church.

LUK 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

As far as Luke is concerned don't leave out the next 'in context' verse.
LUK 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion/meros with the unbelievers.

REV 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part/meros in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those Christians who think they are going to escape the judgmental fires of God, don't need a better translation they just need to reread the old one, no matter how milk toast it is.

Take this literally, ie, I'm impressed! loosely speaking.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

just for once take a look at yourselves... Jesus said he died to bring mankind the absolute Truth direct from God and you spend your lives ignoring his sacrifice and arguing endlessly about the meaning of words in countless versions of TRANSLATIONS of scripture by sinners who CANNOT know God until they stop ?

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

how do you expect to follow Jesus by ignorie the only way of knowing the Truth that he said he had to die to bring you ?

the Truth is BY SPIRIT baptism, not by arguing about words... the spirit simply shows you what the scripture means, these arguments never wiil... never ...

as Jesus says, his way is the ONLY way, so why do you follwo the ways of sinners that just cannot work, even scripture proves that ...but you could just LOOK at all the time you are wasting getting nowhere except more entreched in ego... asserting you are right when God would tell you you are not, if you allowed Him ... you cannot get there without Him !

 

[he-man]

[SIZE=+1]απώλεια[/SIZE], a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense ‘loss’; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction. 1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 . 2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek online
In these vss. [SIZE=+1]απώλεια[/SIZE], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Man’s evil way, 2 Pet 2:2.

De Alter, thank you for your challanging input. It is our goal to stimulat the thinking of all wjo view this discussion. We are not here to cause discord but to awaken the true meaning of our Lord. I enjoying your cmments and wheither right or wrong, we can be inspired to examine closely the truth of the original scriptures.

 

[Hillsage]

It is our goal to stimulate the thinking of all who view this discussion. We are not here to cause discord but to awaken the true meaning of our Lord.

and

 

[WhatisTheTruth7]

DER ALTER

Again the ECF's were fallible men just like me and you; no reason to believe in them but to rely on the Holy scripture to enlighten us of the truth. Again where is the proof that a unbeliever receives an immortal state in the scripture? We can't view the scripture then say this is what it means or think that's what it means. The scripture defines it's self. Everytime you give a verse you try and explain what it means; that is the problem. Just let the scripture define itself...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That explains Phillip telling the eunuch to just let the scripture define itself - oh wait.

 

[Timothew]

That explains Phillip telling the eunuch to just let the scripture define itself - oh wait.

You're right, nobody should examine the scriptures for themselves, they should just wait for the watchtower society to tell them what the scriptures say - oh wait...I guess you are not right.

Seriously, Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[he-man]

You're right, nobody should examine the scriptures for themselves, they should just wait for the watchtower society to tell them what the scriptures say - oh wait...I guess you are not right.

Seriously, Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."

 

[Evergreen48]

Prior to that post what evidence had you posted which supported your argument against Luke 16:19-31?

Prior to that post there was no argument, and there still isn't, except on your part. I simply made the statement that I did not believe that Jesus said the words of the story or parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and I gave my reasons for not believing that it was the words of Jesus. Nothing has changed. I still do not believe that the parable or story was spoken by Jesus. Jesus was not ever inconsistent in his teachings. He was very truthful. He said what he meant and meant what he said. Though he did use the every day events and occurrences to present parables as a means for teaching them, it would have been strictly out of character for him to use a Jewish fable or a heathen myth as a means of teaching and leading his people.

As for your irrelevant Job proof text, it is correct. The womb shall forget the person. That is what happens in this world. He/she shall no more be remembered in this world.

That's really flimsy, and I believe you know better.
First, since the author of Job in an earlier statement said, in effect, that he had come from the womb naked and that he would return there naked, that is evidence that the "womb" under consideration here was the earth itself as the author most likely believed that we came from the dust of the earth.

Next, There are very few who die that are not remembered by someone, especially by the woman who bore them if she is alive when they die. So it is not the living that forgets and remembers them no more. It is God who remembers them no more, as the passage goes on to say that because they are forgotten, wickedness is broken as a tree. It takes more than just man's forgetting someone to "break wickedness as a tree [is broken]". It takes God's putting them out of his remembrance to do away with their wickedness that he allows to perish with them in the grave.

- Just a few scriptures for you to chew on for a little while -

Job 3:11. "Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? 12. Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck? 13. For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, 14. With kings and counsellers of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; 15. Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: 16. Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. 17. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. 18. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. 19. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

Isa. 26:13. "O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14. They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."
Psa. 88:3. "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 4.I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: 5. Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy
hand."

How many people do you know or know of who have never died? You are correct the wages of sin is death, and I add there is none righteous, no not one, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgement.

That's a strange question since everyone that I know who are still alive have never died.

like you want to eat your cake and have it too. If, as you argue, Jesus did not say it, then someone else had to insert it. That is an interpolation. If it reeks of paganism, blah, blah, blah and is not genuine then it is false. Those are the only two choices, true or false.

I don't know what you are talking about. I was arguing that the events in Luke 16;19-31 are factual not a parable. Who said it, if Jesus didn't? If it is not true then it is false. Those are the only two choices.

I know what an interpolation is, thank you. (glad to see you spelled it correctly this time.)

I will say this: I do not know what place in the scriptures that it could belong, but I do not believe that it belongs there in that particular place. As to the parable itself being true or false, I believe what it teaches is false, as it has no scriptural support anywhere else in the scriptures.(that is another reason why I do not believe that Jesus said it.) But it is possible that it is a genuine rabbinical parable. I cannot quote the source, but I read somewhere that there is one much like it in the Gemara.

Okay. Who spoke the words in vss. 10-13? How do you know? Who is speaking in vs. 15 and 17:1?

In your opinion who spoke the words in vss. 10-13? How do you know? Who is speaking in vs.15 and 17:1? Do tell.

Thank you for you irrelevant opinion. Do you just ignore hundreds of years of church history, because it does not support your assumptions/presuppositions.

I have noticed something quite peculiar in your posts: It seems that everyone's opinion but yours on any subject are simply "assumptions/presupposition."

Have you not ever heard that history is in the hand of the recorder of such? especially if the recorder was not present when the events they are writing about were taking place.

Clement mentions a myth about the Phoenix what do you think this proves about what he said about the rich man and Lazarus or the other ECF I quoted? Absolutely nothing!

Clement does a little more than just mention a myth about the Phoenix. It is quite clear that this fellow actually believed the myth, as he refers to it as a sign. I sought to bring that to your attention by bolding "Let us consider that wonderful sign". Guess you must have missed that.
Now, if this man believed that such a thing as this was true, or if he had no more spiritual understanding than that, then I have a problem with giving credence to any other of his commentaries.

There was no catholic church in Rome with a pope at its head until 1075 AD.

I'm sure you have historical and verifiable proof and evidence that this is true and are just dying to post it, but first I have to inquire of you as to where the first church of which Pope Linus who began his reign in c.67 was located?

"The earliest witness is Irenaeus, who in about the year 180 wrote: "The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate." The Oxford Dictionary of Popes interprets Irenaeus as saying that Linus was the first bishop of Rome. Linus is presented by Jerome as "the first after Peter to be in charge of the Roman Church", by Eusebius, as "the first to receive the episcopate of the church at Rome, after the martyrdom of Paul and Peter"John Chrysostom says "This Linus, some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter", [...] -Wickipedia -

Once again all of the ECF, who quote Lk 16:19-31, considered it to be factual. Do you have any historical evidence directly relating to the quotes I have posted?

Why would I need any historical evidence that directly relates to your quotes? And once again ECF don't impress me much, and I have already given my reason as to why they don't.

s Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

Says who? Oh, let me guess, the ECF. Right?

"It is recorded by Irenaeus, who heard him speak in his youth, and by Tertullian, that he had been a disciple of John the Apostle. Saint Jerome wrote that Polycarp was a disciple of John and that John had ordained him bishop of Smyrna."

"Perhaps one of the most intriguing aspects of Polycarp's early manhood was his acquaintance with the apostle John. Twenty years they knew each other, and Polycarp had the privilege of studying at John's feet. It is easy to envy Polycarp. One can imagine listening to Jesus' beloved disciple speak of his years with the Lord and teach what Christ had taught him. All this careful training prepared him for work in the church."

Where is the credible, verifiable evidence that these men knew what they were talking about?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Seriously, Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Oh, my bad.

No wait - the supposition is not right. They are examining scrupture to see whether WHAT things are true?
The things someone told them!!!
About what?
About Jesus!!!
As the ONLY scripture they could possibly be referencing here is the OT, this means they are not looking to have ALL details of their theology verified for them. They can only be looking to see if what they heard about Jesus was true as predicted in the OT.

No one was saying it is bad to be examining scripture to see if what someone said ABOUT scripture be true or not. The point was against just give every one Bibles and let them read it because it "defines itself" for us.

The Apostles were told to go and teach, not hand out Bibles and let it define itself for everybody.

 

[Hillsage]

Again, those who believe they know, land on one side or the other of the truth, which has a middle ground.

There is a need for both teaching from man as well as from God.

PRO 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

ISA 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

There is wisdom in an abundance of counselors. But you don't know what's wise and what's worthless, until you take the advice of others and then go to the throne of God for 'revelation' knowledge. This is knowledge that can only come from the Spirit of truth who will lead and guide you into all the truth.

So it is not an 'either/or' effort, as has been presented, but a 'both/and', I believe.

 

[WhatisTheTruth7]

It's Amazing how many people just ignore plain scripture; it's like people feel like they have to pull some hidden meaning to Basic truth's of scripture. I don't think to many people on this site will argue that Jesus is the way, the truth and life. We don't have to read into John 14:6 but take the verse as it says. No different then Romans 6:23 stating For the wages of sin is Death; but the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We as humans just get in the way and complicate the simple things and truths in life. Of course thats just my opinion

 

[WhatisTheTruth7]

DRBubbaLove-

The Apostles taught the Gospel back then; they did not have Bibles to hand out back then; they were teaching what we are reading in the Bible. so what's your point there?

The Holy Spirit is our teacher and comforter; In todays World you will be hard pressed to find a good teacher of the word ecspecially on TV. TBN is a joke to be sure.