Technically speaking, everyone is agnostic

[Skavau]

Because in paradise, I will know, even as I am fully known, and my perspective and perception will be of such that I can comprehend the love that would cause someone to allow another to have what it is they wanted after having been warned of the danger inherent in their refusal to be rescued.

As I keep telling you, I don't want to be tormented for eternity. If I actually believed hell to exist, I would not want to be there. You speak of only 2 places one can go after life but be under no illusion that those who go to hell go to hell by choice.

Some people want to live apart from God. This is their heart's desire, their true wish, their dream....

But not their dream to be subject to eternal torment.

Also, as you seem to be continually ignoring: Muslims can hardly be described as those who would wish to live apart from God but you believe them to go nowhere else but hell.

 

[quatona]

I have to begin to understand that God gives each person their heart's desire. Whatever that desire may be.

I have to accept that.

Cool. So even if the god of your concept exists I can be sure not to go to hell - because that´s certainly not my "heart´s desire".

 

[Gadarene]

Because in paradise, I will know, even as I am fully known, and my perspective and perception will be of such that I can comprehend the love that would cause someone to allow another to have what it is they wanted after having been warned of the danger inherent in their refusal to be rescued.

Some people want to live apart from God. This is their heart's desire, their true wish, their dream....

I have to begin to understand that God gives each person their heart's desire. Whatever that desire may be.

I have to accept that.

That is what love is. God loves us so much that He does not want anyone to die and have to live eternally apart from Him. He knows what hell is like. So desirous is He of saving us from that awful reality, that He died a gruesome death to make it possible for us to be saved from that reality.

No, it is not love to inflict a gruesome punishment on people over a disagreement. To think that people actually deep down WANT gruesome punishment is the height of stupidity.

I would only opt for hell if the ALTERNATIVE was sacrificing my integrity, as the god you have described is not loving or good. That doesn't mean it would be my "heart's desire" to end up in such a place. It is entirely unnecessary that such a place exist, given that we have an omnipotent deity in play, and one who is supposedly just.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Because in paradise, I will know, even as I am fully known, and my perspective and perception will be of such that I can comprehend the love that would cause someone to allow another to have what it is they wanted after having been warned of the danger inherent in their refusal to be rescued.

Some people want to live apart from God. This is their heart's desire, their true wish, their dream....

I have to begin to understand that God gives each person their heart's desire. Whatever that desire may be.

I have to accept that.

That is what love is. God loves us so much that He does not want anyone to die and have to live eternally apart from Him. He knows what hell is like. So desirous is He of saving us from that awful reality, that He died a gruesome death to make it possible for us to be saved from that reality.

At this point, if I were to adopt your approach, I'd suggest that you only believe such a thing for selfish reasons (e.g., wanting to experience eternal pleasure even in the knowledge that others are in eternal pain). Yet I will not adopt your approach. I will merely repeat what I have said before: this is not justice. A deity that sends countless souls to eternal torment for the crime of not believing in the right dogmas, or not being born into a culture that believes in the right dogmas, is not just, but sadistic.

 

[Elioenai26]

As I keep telling you, I don't want to be tormented for eternity. If I actually believed hell to exist, I would not want to be there.

I cannot think of anyone in their right mind who would want to be burned forever. The reality of hell is not that it is a place of eternal fire but rather, it is a place of the absence of all that is Good. It is the absence of God. However terrible the fire may be, if we take the passage literally, the reality that you will never be able to escape for eternity and that you had a chance to make it right will be far worse than any burning.

You speak of only 2 places one can go after life but be under no illusion that those who go to hell go to hell by choice.

Of course they do.

Behind door A, God..
Behind door B, hell...

If one does not choose God, they by default choose hell.

There is no third door.

But not their dream to be subject to eternal torment.

You are hung up on the eternal torment thing. Torment simply means severe discomfort, pain, sorrow etc. etc. Pain and sorrow at realizing that you had the opportunity but spurned it and spit on it as vile.

The realization that you could have been with Christ who loves you beyond words.....this is the torment of knowing but not being able to do anything about it....forever....

Also, as you seem to be continually ignoring: Muslims can hardly be described as those who would wish to live apart from God but you believe them to go nowhere else but hell.

Muslims do not worship or acknowledge Christ as having come in the flesh, so they are living apart from God even now.

 

[Elioenai26]

At this point, if I were to adopt your approach, I'd suggest that you only believe such a thing for selfish reasons (e.g., wanting to experience eternal pleasure even in the knowledge that others are in eternal pain). Yet I will not adopt your approach. I will merely repeat what I have said before: this is not justice. A deity that sends countless souls to eternal torment for the crime of not believing in the right dogmas, or not being born into a culture that believes in the right dogmas, is not just, but sadistic.

And what about Jesus Christ?

Where does He fit in?

 

[Elioenai26]

No, it is not love to inflict a gruesome punishment on people over a disagreement. To think that people actually deep down WANT gruesome punishment is the height of stupidity.

I would only opt for hell if the ALTERNATIVE was sacrificing my integrity, as the god you have described is not loving or good. That doesn't mean it would be my "heart's desire" to end up in such a place. It is entirely unnecessary that such a place exist, given that we have an omnipotent deity in play, and one who is supposedly just.

You have been warned.

You reject the warning.

So what is it that you want?

 

[Gadarene]

I cannot think of anyone in their right mind who would want to be burned forever.

So then stop insisting that it's people's heart's desire then

You are hung up on the eternal torment thing. Torment simply means severe discomfort, pain, sorrow etc. etc. Pain and sorrow at realizing that you had the opportunity but spurned it and spit on it as vile.

Muslims do not worship or acknowledge Christ as having come in the flesh, so they are living apart from God even now.

Good, so it falsifies this idea that non-Christians want to be apart from God.

 

[Elioenai26]

Cool. So even if the god of your concept exists I can be sure not to go to hell - because that´s certainly not my "heart´s desire".

It is if you do not accept Christ's sacrifice for the remission of your sins. Something I am sure you have not done.

There is either:

1. Life without God
2. Life with God

Hell or heaven

 

[Gadarene]

You have been warned.

You reject the warning.

So what is it that you want?

If the situation is as you say, an alternative. Not automatically throwing non-Christians into hell. Dialogue. A temporary stay of punishment, or a temporary punishment.

There are plenty of alternatives. We have an omnipotent god in play here. It never ceases to amuse me how those who claim to believe most strongly in an omnipotent deity are the ones who truncate his omnipotence the most.

 

[Elioenai26]

So then stop insisting that it's people's heart's desire then

You reject Christ, you desire to be without Him now, and forever....

Good, so it falsifies this idea that non-Christians want to be apart from God.

I believe there are those who seek God with their whole heart and God has promised He will reveal Himself to such a one. These people may currently be atheists, buddhists, muslims etc. etc. But when they have an encounter with the Risen Christ, they will become Christians.

 

[Skavau]

I cannot think of anyone in their right mind who would want to be burned forever. The reality of hell is not that it is a place of eternal fire but rather, it is a place of the absence of all that is Good.

Nor would I want to be in a place that is the permanent absence of good.

It is the absence of God. However terrible the fire may be, if we take the passage literally, the reality that you will never be able to escape for eternity and that you had a chance to make it right will be far worse than any burning.

So I don't, after all, get what I want.

Of course they do.

Behind door A, God..
Behind door B, hell...

If one does not choose God, they by default choose hell.

There is no third door.

What nonsense.

There may only be 2 doors but thinking there are different doors, or believing that the doors do not exist do not constitute choosing them door chosen in advance for them. This is like arguing that someone who crosses a busy road carelessly chooses to get hit over by a car.

You are hung up on the eternal torment thing. Torment simply means severe discomfort, pain, sorrow etc. etc. Pain and sorrow at realizing that you had the opportunity but spurned it and spit on it as vile.

I don't care what form the eternal torment takes. It is unjust to impose it upon people simply for living a life not up to God's impossible standards. It is also unjust to impose it upon people and insist that they somehow chose it or deserve it. I repeat, and I can't repeat enough that Muslims certainly do not make anywhere near such a choice.

The realization that you could have been with Christ who loves you beyond words.....this is the torment of knowing but not being able to do anything about it....forever....

Just curious:

If the torment of hell is purely extreme regret at not repenting in life then what exactly is in heaven worthy of appeal?

Muslims do not worship or acknowledge Christ as having come in the flesh, so they are living apart from God even now.

This is irrelevant.

Muslims choose otherwise. They believe in God. They believe in many similar things to you. They believe they are going to Paradise. They conversely believe you are going to hell.

Suppose Islam is suddenly true.

Would it be just for you to go to hell?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It is if you do not accept Christ's sacrifice for the remission of your sins. Something I am sure you have not done.

There is either:

1. Life without God
2. Life with God

Hell or heaven

Divine sadism masquerading as 'justice.'

 

[quatona]

I have to begin to understand that God gives each person their heart's desire. Whatever that desire may be.

You make it sound like God once I am dead will ask me to describe the place of my heart´s desire and then give it to me - as opposed to the doctrine that God has created two places (both of which may not be to my heart´s desire) and to one of which he sends without even asking me.

 

[Elioenai26]

If the situation is as you say, an alternative. Not automatically throwing non-Christians into hell. Dialogue. A temporary stay of punishment, or a temporary punishment.

Dialogue? Hahaha, that is funny....

God has been speaking for thousands of years. He has spoken in His word. He has spoken through His Son Jesus. He is speaking through the billions of Christians who worship Him and adore Him.

The time is now. He speaks in a thousand and a thousand ways....those who have ears to hear, let them hear....

Your desires are all selfish and self centered, you want a temporary stay of punishment, you want this, you want that, why? So you are not discomforted much? So you do not actually get what you deserve?

This only serves to prove my point. You cannot live like a sinner on earth and expect to go to be rewarded with pleasure, peace, and ease in heaven Gadarene.

Many who are last will be first and many who are first shall be last..

There are plenty of alternatives. We have an omnipotent god in play here. It never ceases to amuse me how those who claim to believe most strongly in an omnipotent deity are the ones who truncate his omnipotence the most.

God cannot do certain things. This does not mean He is not omnipotent.

It simply means you do not know what omnipotence means when theologians and philosophers use the term.

 

[quatona]

It is if you do not accept Christ's sacrifice for the remission of your sins. Something I am sure you have not done.

There is either:

1. Life without God
2. Life with God

Hell or heaven

So the way you put things in your previous post (with God giving me what is to my heart´s desire) was complete nonsense.

 

[Elioenai26]

You make it sound like God once I am dead will ask me to describe the place of my heart´s desire and then give it to me - as opposed to the doctrine that God has created two places (both of which may not be to my heart´s desire) and to one of which he sends without even asking me.

God knows exactly what it is that you want the most.

That, you shall have.

 

[Skavau]

Dialogue? Hahaha, that is funny....

God has been speaking for thousands of years. He has spoken in His word. He has spoken through His Son Jesus. He is speaking through the billions of Christians who worship Him and adore Him.

Too many apparently speak like you, presumptuously, arrogantly and with smears and insults.

Your desires are all selfish and self centered, you want a temporary stay of punishment, you want this, you want that, why? So you are not discomforted much? So you do not actually get what you deserve?

Why do we deserve, by default permanent isolation in a realm devoid of goodness?

 

[Elioenai26]

So the way you put things in your previous post (with God giving me what is to my heart´s desire) was complete nonsense.

Your heart's desire is to either be with God forever or to not be with Him forever.

There is no third option.

 

[Skavau]

Your heart's desire is to either be with God forever or to not be with Him forever.

There is no third option.

Muslims desire to be with God forever.