Technically speaking, everyone is agnostic

[Skavau]

No.

Hang on.

There's a way to avoid that in those Islamic states. You can pretend you're still a Muslim and if you're caught you are given an opportunity to return to Islam.

Does that make it acceptable?

 

[Dani K]

Yup, there's a big difference between knowing something yourself and being able to demonstrate that to someone else. I love my children, wife and grandchild. I can't necessarily convince anyone else of that, and even if my actions gave the impression of loving care then anyone could say I was faking it.
.

Hmm, Interesting way of putting it. I understand where you are coming from.

 

[Gadarene]

No.

If someone no longer wants to be an adherent to a religion, I do not think that members of said religion should kill the person because of that. If that is what you are alluding to.

*slow clap*

And that's why we wouldn't worship your deity.

 

[Gadarene]

According to some, that is not the case.

And they're wrong. That point of similarity will hardly salvage your false analogy, though, as the differences vastly outweigh trivial similarities.

So you say.

But you are not God, you are a man in whose nostrils is his breath.

It is better for me to obey God than to seek to please you.

Not especially if you keep failing.

But hey, if you're happy with that, carry on smearing. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Hell: an excessive punishment - YouTube

 

[Elioenai26]

Hang on.

There's a way to avoid that in those Islamic states. You can pretend you're still a Muslim and if you're caught you are given an opportunity to return to Islam.

Does that make it acceptable?

Does that make what acceptable?

 

[Skavau]

Does that make what acceptable?

...the punishment for apostasy in Islam.

There are ways to avoid the punishment for apostasy in an Islamic state, even if you are an apostate. By your reasoning for why people deserve eternal damnation, executing people for apostasy is entirely acceptable so long as there is some way, poor or otherwise to avoid it.

 

[Elioenai26]

And they're wrong.

You say they are wrong.

They would say you are wrong.

Not especially if you keep failing.

But hey, if you're happy with that, carry on smearing. Let us know how it turns out.

You seem to have some sort of ideal which you think I should be measuring up to and are not and are thus in your words "failing."

I am not acting according to your standard or your ideal to begin with. So I appreciate you sharing with me how you feel, but that is all that your words are to me, an expression of how you feel.

And no doubt, my words are to you, simply an expression of how I feel.

But I wish you well my friend.

 

[Dani K]

Talk about watching religion once again shove people further away. Purposely putting people on the defense is the way to bring love? I feel defensive and I beleive in the maker. You should find a new approach, or you are the one who is going to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off God.

:: Shaking Head :: no wonder I can not stand to sit thru church

 

[Gadarene]

You say they are wrong.

They would say you are wrong.

And you need to stop cutting out the rest of the quote which addresses why this superficial similarity doesn't matter.

You seem to have some sort of ideal which you think I should be measuring up to and are not and are thus in your words "failing."

I am not acting according to your standard or your ideal to begin with. So I appreciate you sharing with me how you feel, but that is all that your words are to me, an expression of how you feel.

And no doubt, my words are to you, simply an expression of how I feel.

Well, you wish for people to be convinced.

They are not convinced.

That would appear to be failure to reach the standard you want. Then again, you believe in an omniscient deity who "never intended" for certain things to happen, so your ability to appraise failure may be a little out of whack.

Has this silly smearing approach EVER worked for you, Elioenai? Has it ever saved any atheist? Did they ever convert when you just insisted and insisted they didn't really know what their own motivations where?

But I wish you well my friend.

Cut it out. We are not friends. Someone who repeatedly lies about me is not a friend, just like someone who wants to burn me eternally for not liking him is loving.

 

[Dani K]

Ps.. excuse my typos... I am not a spell checker. I run it out and send

 

[Elioenai26]

...the punishment for apostasy in Islam.

There are ways to avoid the punishment for apostasy in an Islamic state, even if you are an apostate. By your reasoning for why people deserve eternal damnation, executing people for apostasy is entirely acceptable so long as there is some way, poor or otherwise to avoid it.

To make this simple for you I will simply say that if a person is drowning in the water and they refuse to be rescued by a person who comes along and says:"I must have your permission to rescue you, you must want to be rescued before I can help you.", then they have chosen to drown. They do not give consent to be rescued so they drown. They choose to ignore, refuse, resist the help offered.

There are only two options open to the person in the water:

1. Accept the invitation of salvation and be rescued.
2. Reject the invitation and die.

There is no third option.

So if the person does not want to be rescued and take their "chances", then that is their choice. I would feel sad to see a person choose that, but I would have to also understand that that is what they wanted.

 

[Dani K]

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is a cuss word?

 

[Gadarene]

To make this simple for you I will simply say that if a person is drowning in the water and they refuse to be rescued by a person who comes along and says:"I must have your permission to rescue you, you must want to be rescued before I can help you.", then they have chosen to drown. They do not give consent to be rescued so they drown. They choose to ignore, refuse, resist the help offered.

There are only two options open to the person in the water:

1. Accept the invitation of salvation and be rescued.
2. Reject the invitation and die.

There is no third option.

So if the person does not want to be rescued and take their "chances", then that is their choice. I would feel sad to see a person choose that, but I would have to also understand that that is what they wanted.

False analogy again.

The drowning person knows and acknowledges they are drowning.

The problem you seek to "save" us from has still not been demonstrated to exist - the same is true for the deity who instituted it.

 

[Gadarene]

Talk about watching religion once again shove people further away. Purposely putting people on the defense is the way to bring love? I feel defensive and I beleive in the maker. You should find a new approach, or you are the one who is going to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off God.

:: Shaking Head :: no wonder I can not stand to sit thru church

See, Elioenai?

One Christian who gets it. There are many others.

The fact that I, an avowed atheist, can acknowledge this, should be ringing alarm bells for you and your approach right now.

 

[Skavau]

To make this simple for you I will simply say that if a person is drowning in the water and they refuse to be rescued by a person who comes along and says:"I must have your permission to rescue you, you must want to be rescued before I can help you.", then they have chosen to drown. They do not give consent to be rescued so they drown. They choose to ignore, refuse, resist the help offered.

I am sure I have answered this many times before, even from you.

Presumably in this scenario I am drowning and the rescuer is Jesus. Here's the answer: From my perspective, I am not drowning. I don't even believe that I am swimming. Jesus may come to my rescue but per your doctrine he also pushed me in the water in the first place.

Either tell the full story or none at all.

There are only two options open to the person in the water:

1. Accept the invitation of salvation and be rescued.
2. Reject the invitation and die.

There is no third option.

So if the person does not want to be rescued and take their "chances", then that is their choice. I would feel sad to see a person choose that, but I would have to also understand that that is what they wanted.

I don't believe that such an invitation exists. I don't believe that salvation exists yet I do not want to drown.

It is entirely possible to not accept God and yet not want to burn in hell for eternity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

To make this simple for you I will simply say that if a person is drowning in the water and they refuse to be rescued by a person who comes along and says:"I must have your permission to rescue you, you must want to be rescued before I can help you.", then they have chosen to drown. They do not give consent to be rescued so they drown. They choose to ignore, refuse, resist the help offered.

There are only two options open to the person in the water:

1. Accept the invitation of salvation and be rescued.
2. Reject the invitation and die.

There is no third option.

So if the person does not want to be rescued and take their "chances", then that is their choice. I would feel sad to see a person choose that, but I would have to also understand that that is what they wanted.

Suppose that it is a relative of yours who doesn't want to be rescued and who ends up in hell. How would it be possible for you to enjoy salvation and paradise knowing that your loved one is suffering eternal torment?

 

[Elioenai26]

And you need to stop cutting out the rest of the quote which addresses why this superficial similarity doesn't matter.



Well, you wish for people to be convinced.

They are not convinced.

Like the Apostle Paul said, I could wish that all were as I am.....

I want you to be convinced of course, but I have learned a lesson that has not come easy....

I do not have the ability to convince you of anything.

That would appear to be failure to reach the standard you want.

It would be a failure if your convincing was dependent upon my defense of the gospel, but it is not. So there is no failure on my part.

Then again, you believe in an omniscient deity who "never intended" for certain things to happen, so your ability to appraise failure may be a little out of whack.

The existence of free creatures makes possible situations that could arise that would be contrary to God's prescriptive will.

Has this silly smearing approach EVER worked for you, Elioenai? Has it ever saved any atheist? Did they ever convert when you just insisted and insisted they didn't really know what their own motivations where?

I have never saved anyone.

God alone saves.

Cut it out. We are not friends. Someone who repeatedly lies about me is not a friend, just like someone who wants to burn me eternally for not liking him is loving.

Ok Gadarene. I shall call you Gadarene from now on.

 

[Elioenai26]

Suppose that it is a relative of yours who doesn't want to be rescued and who ends up in hell. How would it be possible for you to enjoy salvation and paradise knowing that your loved one is suffering eternal torment?

Because in paradise, I will know, even as I am fully known, and my perspective and perception will be of such that I can comprehend the love that would cause someone to allow another to have what it is they wanted after having been warned of the danger inherent in their refusal to be rescued.

Some people want to live apart from God. This is their heart's desire, their true wish, their dream....

I have to begin to understand that God gives each person their heart's desire. Whatever that desire may be.

I have to accept that.

That is what love is. God loves us so much that He does not want anyone to die and have to live eternally apart from Him. He knows what hell is like. So desirous is He of saving us from that awful reality, that He died a gruesome death to make it possible for us to be saved from that reality.

 

[Gadarene]

Like the Apostle Paul said, I could wish that all were as I am.....

I want you to be convinced of course, but I have learned a lesson that has not come easy....

I do not have the ability to convince you of anything.

Well, I would entirely agree with that, though for considerably different reasons.

It would be a failure if your convincing was dependent upon my defense of the gospel, but it is not. So there is no failure on my part.

I do love how you post and post and post, and yet it's apparently entirely irrelevant to the matter. So convenient.

The existence of free creatures makes possible situations that could arise that would be contrary to God's prescriptive will.

Nope. Not given that he knows what they will do, being omniscient.

I have never saved anyone.

God alone saves.

Drop the tedious semantics. Has the smearing approach, as you have presented it, ever resulted or contributed to, or been involved in someone being saved? Has anyone ever responded positively to it?