Technically speaking, everyone is agnostic

[Archaeopteryx]

Since I have very good reason to believe that our thoughts about God are the most important things that we can think and that God's existence is the single most important subject a human can endeavor to take up and learn about, yes, I believe that I can understand your entire philosophical outlook and methodology. Belief or disbelief in God shapes your entire outlook of reality and as such, is a good indicator of how you view reality.

Either there is no God or there is.

I can predict what your views are regarding a number of issues based solely upon how you answer this one question:

"Does God exist?"

Not with great accuracy. Suppose someone tells you "I'm a Theist." Beyond learning that they believe in at least one god, how can you predict their views on a number of issues?

People who say that they do not want God to exist have reasons for saying so. They have reasons for thinking that way. And at the end of the day the reasons, whatever they may be, are rooted and grounded in selfishness. For the one who does not want God, they themselves want to be god, masters of their own fate, controllers of their own world, men and women who answer to no ultimate judge of righteousness, no all-seeing, all-knowing God who will reward them for what they have done, whether evil or good.

So atheists do not want God to exist for selfish reasons? The theist is motivated by unselfish reasons?

 

[Sectio Aurea]

So atheists do not want God to exist for selfish reasons? The theist is motivated by unselfish reasons?

Can one deduce a less insulting inference?

 

[quatona]

Can one deduce a less insulting inference?

No. The deck is stacked.

 

[quatona]

The God that philosophers engage in discourse and debate about. This is a philosophy forum so let us begin with the "Greatest Conceivable Being" concept of God which philosophers predominately deal with in their work.

Sure I would like the greatest being that I can conceive of to exist.

 

[Elioenai26]

Not with great accuracy. Suppose someone tells you "I'm a Theist." Beyond learning that they believe in at least one god, how can you predict their views on a number of issues?

What I said was that I can predict what one will say regarding a number of issues depending on their answer to the following question:

"Does God exist?"

The reason I can predict what people will say is that I have spoken with enough atheists to know how they generally respond to certain questions.

For example, regarding the destiny of man, I can predict what an atheist will say based on an atheistic worldview when asked:

"What is the ultimate destiny of man?"

This is one example.

So atheists do not want God to exist for selfish reasons? The theist is motivated by unselfish reasons?

I nowhere stated atheists do not want God to exist for selfish reasons. That would be lumping all atheists together unfairly. I do not know all atheists and therefore cannot make that assertion.

What I have stated, without apology, is that there have been several notable atheists, as well as several atheists on this forum, who have openly confessed that they do not want God to exist. Their reasons for this are ultimately rooted and grounded in a selfish disposition.

 

[quatona]

What I have stated, without apology, is that there have been several notable atheists, as well as several atheists on this forum, who have openly confessed that they do not want God to exist. Their reasons for this are ultimately rooted and grounded in a selfish disposition.

You´d have to explain that logic. As it stands there it´s just a non-sequitur (unless it´s not even meant to be an argument but just the attempt to paint those "notable" atheists in a bad light).

 

[Elioenai26]

You´d have to explain that logic. As it stands there it´s just a non-sequitur (unless it´s not even meant to be an argument but just the attempt to paint those "notable" atheists in a bad light).

Are you familiar with Huxley and Nagel and what they said were there reasons for not wanting God to exist?

Are you familiar with Wiccan Child and Gadarene's reasons? Skavau's reasons?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What I said was that I can predict what one will say regarding a number of issues depending on their answer to the following question:

"Does God exist?"

The reason I can predict what people will say is that I have spoken with enough atheists to know how they generally respond to certain questions.

For example, regarding the destiny of man, I can predict what an atheist will say based on an atheistic worldview when asked:

"What is the ultimate destiny of man?"

This is one example.

I'll reiterate what I said in another thread:

In a recent book, Thomas Nagel put forth an argument for a teleological, as opposed to materialist, view of nature. Nagel is an atheist. Atheism and materialism aren't necessarily related. The one thing that all atheists share, by definition, is a lack of belief in deities. That is all. Beyond that, their views on ontology, epistemology, ethics, politics, art, etc., can (and does) differ. Sometimes religious apologists like to lump all atheists into a single category of atheist-materialist-emotivist-liberal-progressives. Contrary to what they may believe, we are not the Borg.

(Though if we were the Borg, we would find your religion unworthy of assimilation )

I nowhere stated atheists do not want God to exist for selfish reasons. That would be lumping all atheists together unfairly. I do not know all atheists and therefore cannot make that assertion.

That's right.

What I have stated, without apology, is that there have been several notable atheists, as well as several atheists on this forum, who have openly confessed that they do not want God to exist. Their reasons for this are ultimately rooted and grounded in a selfish disposition.

Who on this forum has confessed to not wanting God to exist for purely selfish reasons?

 

[Elioenai26]

Who on this forum has confessed to not wanting God to exist for purely selfish reasons?

No one has confessed that they do not want God to exist for purely selfish reasons, but it can be inferred from the reasons they give.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No one has confessed that they do not want God to exist for purely selfish reasons, but it can be inferred from the reasons they give.

Such as?

 

[quatona]

Are you familiar with Wiccan Child and Gadarene's reasons? Skavau's reasons?

Yes, I have read many of their posts. Now present the logic why these reasons are "selfish".

Besides, most of those reasons were about your particular personal God concept, not about the philosophical concept "the greatest conceivable being" - which you said you wanted to base the discussion upon.

 

[Elioenai26]

Yes, I have read many of their posts. Now present the logic why these reasons are "selfish".

If at any point, someone says to me something akin to:

"I will not get down on bended knee and worship God..."

"I will not honor God..."

"I would rather gladly go to hell than worship God..."

Anything that touches on honoring, worshiping, reverencing, exalting in the above manner combined with the repeated usage of the word "I" "I" "I"....

"I" will or will not do such and such...

"I" despise or "I" would question God, or "I" am offended that God would such and such....

I simply examine where this line of reasoning originates from...

It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.

The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes. It is something that cannot be hidden or suppressed when challenged. When challenged it comes bursting forth from the heart of man through his lips. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.

The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes.

What utter tripe. It doesn't take self-centeredness to have some self-respect and dignity as an individual, instead of viewing oneself as a slave.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Skavau]

If at any point, someone says to me something akin to:

"I will not get down on bended knee and worship God..."

Since when is perpetual reverence and adulation in the form of permanent praise a noteworthy virtue or even a virtue at all? A being that commands worship probably doesn't deserve it. Just like politicians who crave power probably shouldn't be given it.

At any rate, I say that I wouldn't worship God as you describe on the basis that his attributes and plans are morally indefensible. I see almost nothing worthy in him that commands worship.

"I will not honor God..."

I find, if anything honouring someone to be redundant.

"I would rather gladly go to hell than worship God..."

So how is this selfish?

If it was about "I" then surely I would work in my self-interest and surrender my moral objections in favour of finding myself a spot in heaven? It hardly serves me to go to hell, does it?

Anything that touches on honoring, worshiping, reverencing, exalting in the above manner combined with the repeated usage of the word "I" "I" "I"...

.
I use the word "I" to describe me, something I think or would do. I make no particular emphasis towards it.

"I" will or will not do such and such...

Does individual agency upset you?

"I" despise or "I" would question God, or "I" am offended that God would such and such....

What's selfish about these?

I simply examine where this line of reasoning originates from...

It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.

You through a lot of descriptions without much basis. By saying I would oppose the God that you endorse is hardly self-glorification, exaltation or self-centeredness. Ironically all of those attributes you've just listed off could very accurately and conceivably be used to describe God. God is to you and wants to be to all, the be and all and end all of existence. He insists on being the purpose and the objective for everyone and historically is the originator. You could not get more self-glorified, frankly.

The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes.

What is humility to you, exactly?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Apparently, this is the moral ideal:

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Elioenai26]

What utter tripe. It doesn't take self-centeredness to have some self-respect and dignity as an individual, instead of viewing oneself as a slave.


eudaimonia,

Mark

This is where you go astray.

I have never said a person should not have self-respect or dignity as an individual.

In fact, we are encouraged to have self-respect and dignity. God commands us to see ourselves as wonderfully and fearfully made and to see that this is true not only of ourselves but of every other human being.

Having self-respect and being a selfish, self-centered person are two different things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If at any point, someone says to me something akin to:

"I will not get down on bended knee and worship God..."

"I will not honor God..."

"I would rather gladly go to hell than worship God..."

Anything that touches on honoring, worshiping, reverencing, exalting in the above manner combined with the repeated usage of the word "I" "I" "I"....

"I" will or will not do such and such...

"I" despise or "I" would question God, or "I" am offended that God would such and such....

I simply examine where this line of reasoning originates from...

It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.

The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes. It is something that cannot be hidden or suppressed when challenged. When challenged it comes bursting forth from the heart of man through his lips. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Why should anyone be expected to exalt or worship without a second thought simply because you insist that they should? Whether a God is worthy of being exalted or worshipped remains an open question. You are confusing rational skepticism for arrogance and pride.

It also somewhat ironic that you see statements involving the pronoun "I" as exuding self-exaltation and prideful blustering. Is it humble to make statements like "I know the Truth, with a capital T" when referring to God? That isn't in any way self-exalting?

 

[Skavau]

Is that Crace?

*squints* It is! Don't give me spoilers though, only 1/2 way through the 2nd season.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This is where you go astray.

Don't blame me if you are unclear or inconsistent.

Having self-respect and being a selfish, self-centered person are two different things.

I totally agree. If only you could make that distinction in what atheists are telling you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

If at any point, someone says to me something akin to:

"I will not get down on bended knee and worship God..."

"I will not honor God..."

"I would rather gladly go to hell than worship God..."

If memory serves they didn´t say that in regards to "the greatest conceivable being" that you asked us to base the discussion on but in regards to your personal god concept.

Anything that touches on honoring, worshiping, reverencing, exalting in the above manner combined with the repeated usage of the word "I" "I" "I"....

"I" will or will not do such and such...

"I" despise or "I" would question God, or "I" am offended that God would such and such....

Well, if you keep asking for people´s personal wishes "Do you.." it´s not really surprising that the answers contain quite a few "I´s" of that sort. The same would happen if one were to express his desire for there to be a god.

I simply examine where this line of reasoning originates from...

No, you don´t. You are using smear tactics, you are employing "poisoning the well" fallacies, you are arguing ad hominem, you are using circular reasoning.

It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.

Even if that were the case, and even if it were true that we see it mainly coming from atheists, it would not allow to infer "selfish reasons" for holding a particular position.

The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes.

But you didn´t say "these are selfish persons", you said "they have selfish reasons for...".

It is something that cannot be hidden or suppressed when challenged. When challenged it comes bursting forth from the heart of man through his lips. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

In short and stripped of all the loaded rhethoric: People give you their opinions when you ask for them. Often, though, they even do it without you asking them.