My God is not dead!

[XB3LI3V3RX]

I didn't say you did (except for the outrageous claims). Those are techniques we've all encountered a thousand times. If you're ever tempted to use one of them, I can tell you they won't work.

He called you out. That's not an attack. I believe the point he was trying to make was that if those events really did happen, we would expect it would be a global sensation, reported in the media for months and each person studied by countless doctors. And if these events are true, then why wouldn't these people go around the world healing incurable diseases and medical conditions all the time?

Again I know what happened, I know what I saw, and no one can tell me I'm wrong. If I heard everything I said second hand, then yea I might be like that's cool, but not be sure if it was true, but I SAW this happen. I SAW this. How can something I saw happen right in front of my face be fake? You can all make fun of me all you want but I know what I saw. And to answer your question Christians do go around the world praying for people and helping people, but you can't expect some news companies to be filming people at a church praying for people and watching them become healed. Have you ever heard of any news station going around to church saying we want evidence that people can become healed? God heals people when He wants to, not because some media wants some frontline news. God knows what His whole plan is going to be like and it's all set up to fall into place, but I have no idea what any of those plans are and no one else on the planet does either. Also, miracles happen at hospitals all the time, but again unbelievers dismiss it even if a doctor says it happened. You can't force people to believe, you just have to pray and hope that God will touch their hearts.

~<Learn to Follow the Wolves>~

 

[TG123]

I didn't say you did (except for the outrageous claims). Those are techniques we've all encountered a thousand times. If you're ever tempted to use one of them, I can tell you they won't work.



He called you out. That's not an attack. I believe the point he was trying to make was that if those events really did happen, we would expect it would be a global sensation, reported in the media for months and each person studied by countless doctors. And if these events are true, then why wouldn't these people go around the world healing incurable diseases and medical conditions all the time?



I poke fun.



Then I think you're setting yourself up for a world of confusion and frustration when you come to realize that some things you believe were wrong (and I'm not necessarily talking about religious beliefs). Don't let yourself be taken advantage of.



Let me introduce you to a concept called burden of proof. That means that the person who makes a positive assertion is responsible for providing the evidence to support said assertion. For example, if I said there is an invisible flying unicorn that lives on Uranus, would be closed minded for not believing me? No. My claim about the unicorn is not consistent with our experience of the natural universe, so you would be correct to reject my claim unless I could provide convincing evidence.

I have to say I agree with awitch here, particularly when it comes to the issue of mockery or attacks. Neither awitch or Hitchslap are Christians, and they do disagree with a lot of our Christian beliefs. However, by questioning them and expressing doubt they are not being rude or condescending. Sarcasm is often used in debate, and it is normal for people to question each other's beliefs. I use sarcasm quite often, and lay it on heavily at times.

I do question people's beliefs openly, in particularly Muslim beliefs and the secular view that homosexuality is a positive thing and should be portrayed as such. That doesn't mean I hate Muslims or gay people.

We should look forward to discussions with non-believers. Most of them are nice people. Awitch and I have had some many great discussions, and he is always very respectful towards me and others who are respectful towards him and others. He knows how to disagree in a civil and respectful way. Hitchslap I am just getting to know, but I see that often he writes posts that are "in your face" and provocative- this is one thing I really enjoy about him. He holds little back. There are some really well-read and intelligent Jewish and Muslim posters on here also, like LoAmmi and LoveBeingAMuslimah and Islam_Mulia and sunshine and others. They know their religions well, and ask often tough questions of our beliefs.

They and many other non-Christians on CF are very nice people. They are, according to the Bible, wrong in their beliefs. Because I like and respect them, I pray for them and I hope they find salvation in Jesus. I also do my best to answer their questions and assertions, so I can present the Gospel to them. I also try to listen to what they believe, so I can not only understand it better but so I can more effectively present the Gospel and be able to at times point out where I believe their views are wrong, doing so hoping they will come to the Truth.

I am so pumped that you love Jesus, and that in your youth you are turning to Him rather than worldly attractions like sex, money, popularity, other snares that the Evil One throws at us. I hope you stay long on the forum, and that Christ's light shines through you to others.

I'd like to finish up with a passage from 1 Peter 3, in my opinion one of the best apologetics tips ever written.

1 Peter 3:13-17
13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

 

[XB3LI3V3RX]

I have to say I agree with awitch here, particularly when it comes to the issue of mockery or attacks. Neither awitch or Hitchslap are Christians, and they do disagree with a lot of our Christian beliefs. However, by questioning them and expressing doubt they are not being rude or condescending. Sarcasm is often used in debate, and it is normal for people to question each other's beliefs. I use sarcasm quite often, and lay it on heavily at times.

I do question people's beliefs openly, in particularly Muslim beliefs and the secular view that homosexuality is a positive thing and should be portrayed as such. That doesn't mean I hate Muslims or gay people.

We should look forward to discussions with non-believers. Most of them are nice people. Awitch and I have had some many great discussions, and he is always very respectful towards me and others who are respectful towards him and others. He knows how to disagree in a civil and respectful way. Hitchslap I am just getting to know, but I see that often he writes posts that are "in your face" and provocative- this is one thing I really enjoy about him. He holds little back. There are some really well-read and intelligent Jewish and Muslim posters on here also, like LoAmmi and LoveBeingAMuslimah and Islam_Mulia and sunshine and others. They know their religions well, and ask often tough questions of our beliefs.

They and many other non-Christians on CF are very nice people. They are, according to the Bible, wrong in their beliefs. Because I like and respect them, I pray for them and I hope they find salvation in Jesus. I also do my best to answer their questions and assertions, so I can present the Gospel to them. I also try to listen to what they believe, so I can not only understand it better but so I can more effectively present the Gospel and be able to at times point out where I believe their views are wrong, doing so hoping they will come to the Truth.

I am so pumped that you love Jesus, and that in your youth you are turning to Him rather than worldly attractions like sex, money, popularity, other snares that the Evil One throws at us. I hope you stay long on the forum, and that Christ's light shines through you to others.

I'd like to finish up with a passage from 1 Peter 3, in my opinion one of the best apologetics tips ever written.

1 Peter 3:13-17
13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

It just gets annoying to me when people tell me I'm wrong when I know I'm right. I know I've been wrong on stuff before, haven't we all? But I saw all of this happen this week and people are acting like this is a joke I'm making or something and this was very serious to me. I really felt God flowing through that church last night.

~<Learn to Follow the Wolves>~

 

[awitch]

How can something I saw happen right in front of my face be fake?

I can think of many possibilities.

You can all make fun of me all you want but I know what I saw.

I don't think anyone has made fun of you. I did poke fun at the idea that people with such serious ailments were miraculously cured...at a show...where the goal was to convert impressionable people...

And to answer your question Christians do go around the world praying for people and helping people,

God knows what His whole plan is going to be like and it's all set up to fall into place, but I have no idea what any of those plans are and no one else on the planet does either.

Which is why we wonder what kind of plan calls for the slow, painful death of so many people, including the young and innocent.

Also, miracles happen at hospitals all the time, but again unbelievers dismiss it even if a doctor says it happened.

Because "someone said so" is not convincing.

 

[XB3LI3V3RX]

I can think of many possibilities.

I don't think anyone has made fun of you. I did poke fun at the idea that people with such serious ailments were miraculously cured...at a show...where the goal was to convert impressionable people...

Which is why we wonder what kind of plan calls for the slow, painful death of so many people, including the young and innocent.

Because "someone said so" is not convincing.

I'm done talking to you so please just stop.

~<Learn to Follow the Wolves>~

 

[awitch]

Awitch and I have had some many great discussions,

BTW, I think I sent you a message a few days ago. I thought maybe I had gotten boring

 

[HitchSlap]

It just gets annoying to me when people tell me I'm wrong when I know I'm right. I know I've been wrong on stuff before, haven't we all? But I saw all of this happen this week and people are acting like this is a joke I'm making or something and this was very serious to me. I really felt God flowing through that church last night.

~<Learn to Follow the Wolves>~

Do you know what CP is? How one gets it? It's prognosis? Do you know if anyone has ever been cured of CP?

I don't doubt you experienced something. Group-think situations are powerful, especially when the adrenaline and dopamine begin to surge. It's a uniquely human phenomena and all cultures throughout recorded history share examples of this. At seventeen, you hardly have the life experience and knowledge to determine if someone truly had CP, and then was suddenly relieved of it's debilitation. As time passes, you will learn to sharpen your BS meter, that is to say, your skepticism about about extraordinary claims should remain high. As Carl Sagan has said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I've lived long enough to know that miraculous claims are a dime a dozen, but as you examine the details on a case by case basis, the claims always fall apart.

Think about it, if a gathering of individuals is the only thing necessary to heal sick people, then my point about visiting children's oncology wings and VA amputee wings is a legitimate point. I mean, what better way to show the power of your god?

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm saying you're being irrationally credulous to believe what you claimed happened. It didn't.

Pray for just one amputee you may know and see if the limb is restored.

Whether you believe it or not, it's still more than what happens at the typical atheist gathering where the only thing worshipped is the human ego and very little positive comes out of it, unless you count the inflation of already obese egos and delusions of intelligence a good thing.

Atheism- opiate of the decadent bourgeoisie.

 

[Zoness]

So ignoring the "I'm right and the rest of you are bad people" attitude of the OP I pose the following simple question:

Why post this in this particular subforum? Like, its a nice story and all but are you trying to convert is via hearsay on the internet?

 

[Eudaimonist]

My girlfriend has had trouble with her wisdom teeth and she said the pain disappeared last night. Another girl sprained her ankle and had to walk with a boot, but when we prayed for her she took that boot off and was able to jump around and worship God. Yet another boy was COMPLETELY healed of cerebral palsy. Many others were healed of migraines, joint aches, hurting muscles...

I'm getting the impression that people were mainly losing the sensation of pain.

This raises a red flag for me. If ecstatic religious worship produces natural pain killing neurochemicals in the body, that would account for the sudden absence of pain. There was no healing taking place. There was no supernatural influence. It was like being given a very effective aspirin.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Whether you believe it or not, it's still more than what happens at the typical atheist gathering where the only thing worshipped is the human ego and very little positive comes out of it, unless you count the inflation of already obese egos and delusions of intelligence a good thing.

Atheism- opiate of the decadent bourgeoisie.

At least that "decadent bourgeoisie" values the science that has created the medical advances that has done so much more to save lives than the merely pain-killing "opiate of the masses".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm getting the impression that people were mainly losing the sensation of pain.

This raises a red flag for me. If ecstatic religious worship produces natural pain killing neurochemicals in the body, that would account for the sudden absence of pain. There was no healing taking place. There was no supernatural influence. It was like being given a very effective aspirin.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Why is that a problem? If a placebo effect helps dull pain, then why wouldn't anyone, doctor, God or yogi use it?

Here's the issue that I think a lot of people, theists especially, overlook. The mind is a powerful thing, and even coming to a psychological or physiological conclusion on the causes or healing or whatever doesn't overrule a Divine doctor making the prescription. It's just the natural observable result.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The mind is a powerful thing, and even coming to a psychological or physiological conclusion on the causes or healing or whatever doesn't overrule a Divine doctor making the prescription. It's just the natural observable result.

The problem I have with this is that it makes the conclusion that divine intervention involved entirely ambiguous and unsupported. Sure, one may choose to believe that such intervention has taken place, but there is no rational reason to do so. It's all in the area of "faith".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[awitch]

Why is that a problem? If a placebo effect helps dull pain, then why wouldn't anyone, doctor, God or yogi use it?

It's temporary and it's not a cure and the stunt in the OP goes way beyond a sugar pill.

Faith healing is an ancient scam and it's particularly evil because the scam artists are making money while the legitimately sick are dying. Did you see my link to the article on the Schiable family? Their 2 year old son died of pneumonia because they refused medical treatment and relied on prayer. Did they go to prison for neglect, endangering the welfare of a child, or manslaughter? No, they got probation and kept custody of their other kids because they said the magic words, "I believe in Jesus". That's disgusting enough, but then they let their 8 month old die too.

Here's the issue that I think a lot of people, theists especially, overlook. The mind is a powerful thing, and even coming to a psychological or physiological conclusion on the causes or healing or whatever doesn't overrule a Divine doctor making the prescription. It's just the natural observable result.[/quote]

 

[ContraMundum]

At least that "decadent bourgeoisie" values the science that has created the medical advances that has done so much more to save lives than the merely pain-killing "opiate of the masses".


eudaimonia,

Mark

One of the classic false claims atheism makes is claiming that faith doesn't appreciate science. This is simply not true, as both religion and philosophy paved the way through the study of logic and epistemology for science to advance.

Secondly, the obvious follow on false claim also should be noted- that appreciating medicine or science means the abandonment or obsolescence of faith. This too is absurd, as anyone with a faith in God would attest to God's interest in the betterment of mankind- eg through science, philosophy, the arts and religion.

So, sorry to burst your balloon, but people of faith do not reject science.

 

[HitchSlap]

Whether you believe it or not, it's still more than what happens at the typical atheist gathering where the only thing worshipped is the human ego and very little positive comes out of it, unless you count the inflation of already obese egos and delusions of intelligence a good thing.

Atheism- opiate of the decadent bourgeoisie.

I would hardly consider jumping around on chairs, rolling on the floor, speaking gibberish, shaking uncontrollably, sham healings and singing second rate songs to be superior to intellectual, scientific and philosophical discussions. But that's just me. Whatever gets you through.

 

[HitchSlap]

One of the classic false claims atheism makes is claiming that faith doesn't appreciate science. This is simply not true, as both religion and philosophy paved the way through the study of logic and epistemology for science to advance.

Secondly, the obvious follow on false claim also should be noted- that appreciating medicine or science means the abandonment or obsolescence of faith. This too is absurd, as anyone with a faith in God would attest to God's interest in the betterment of mankind- eg through science, philosophy, the arts and religion.

So, sorry to burst your balloon, but people of faith do not reject science.

Do you have any idea where are technology might be if religion had not impeded it's progress?

Faith is the reason people give when they don't have good reasons to believe in something.

 

[ContraMundum]

It's temporary and it's not a cure and the stunt in the OP goes way beyond a sugar pill.

Faith healing is an ancient scam and it's particularly evil because the scam artists are making money while the legitimately sick are dying. Did you see my link to the article on the Schiable family? Their 2 year old son died of pneumonia because they refused medical treatment and relied on prayer. Did they go to prison for neglect, endangering the welfare of a child, or manslaughter? No, they got probation and kept custody of their other kids because they said the magic words, "I believe in Jesus". That's disgusting enough, but then they let their 8 month old die too.

Nothing new here. Nothing I would support, nor will I accept your blame for it. I don't even think you can equate extreme examples with the norm.

Your opinion is noted, but it doesn't gel with my reality. I've seen miracles that I can't explain, including healing. I've also seen the miracle of accepting sickness and growing from it. Sure, while some people are desperate to disprove any supernatural intervention in order to prop up their (often emotional) rejection of a Divine being, I for one have better things to do, like live a life in awe of creation and the pursuit of God. I really don't see any life value in being angry at God and others.

 

[ContraMundum]

Do you have any idea where are technology might be if religion had not impeded it's progress?

Faith is the reason people give when they don't have good reasons to believe in something.

Oh give it a rest, will ya? You seriously don't expect me to follow you down the boring old neo-atheist rabbit hole, do you?

Try it on someone less educated with time to waste on their hands.

 

[HitchSlap]

Nothing new here. Nothing I would support, nor will I accept your blame for it. I don't even think you can equate extreme examples with the norm.

Your opinion is noted, but it doesn't gel with my reality. I've seen miracles that I can't explain, including healing. I've also seen the miracle of accepting sickness and growing from it. Sure, while some people are desperate to disprove any supernatural intervention in order to prop up their (often emotional) rejection of a Divine being, I for one have better things to do, like live a life in awe of creation and the pursuit of God. I really don't see any life value in being angry at God and others.

What gives you the impression we're angry?

Someone made a BS claim (a kid was healed of CP) to which I asked for evidence, of which he could not supply. Forgive us if just don't take your word for it. Ever hear the the saying, "there's a sucker born every minute...?"