The Message of Jesus Christ

[Breezee]

The sign of the coming of the Lord has been a burning question even back when Jesus walked the earth. Even then his disciples were seeking a definitive sign that would mean “any day now.”

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Matt. 24:3

Peter attempted to dispel this idea of a sign that would mean “any day now” by reminding us: be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:7-8

Jesus told His disciples that no man knew the day and the hour not even the angels in heaven. The Father alone knows.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt. 24:36

However, Jesus did give us a very important sign, He said: When we see the desolation or destruction of that which has been an abomination in the earth, stand in the holy place.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt. 24:15

The scripture has defined the city of Babylon as an abomination in the earth.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev. 17:4-5

Described as the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: It’s very important that we unveil this figure, because when she is destroyed we’ll know that the time is near.

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Rev. 17:1-2

The scripture explains that the many waters are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues, which is telling us that her influence is over the whole world, all it’s people, regardless of language or nationality.

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Revelations 17:15KJV)

She is also described as that great city that reign over the kings of the earth. In other words she rule over even “the most prominent men ” in the earth.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:18

Through her the rulers of the earth have lived lavishly and those that buy and sell have been made rich.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Rev. 18:3

However, after she has been destroyed buying and selling stops.

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: (Revelation 18:11KJV)

Clearly the scripture is saying here that the world system which was dedicated to the amassing of wealth has collapsed.

For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. (Revelation 18:17-19KJV)

I think the the harlot of Babylon is the USA. At the moment she "sits as a queen" saying "I shall never be a widow". The US is the most materialistic nation of earth and represents the biggest market for goods on the planet.
Almost every nation will weep if/when she is destroyed and the world economy would collapse.

 

[Breezee]

TR you say a number of times that

"Not being able to buy and sell without the the name of the beast, or the number of his name is usually ignored because it does not fit a literal understanding."

I beg to differ. I think the literal interpretation of the Mark of the Beast is usually ignored because people never seriously consider that Jesus may want us to live without money (i.e. like the birds).

 

[TRWord]

The problem is that there are SO many people out there claiming to have "special revelations". It's not that I don't believe in revelation, per se, it's just that I don't think it should take precedence over scripture.

Breezee this has nothing to do with people who claim to have special revelations. It’s a fact that most of us do not believe in revelation. We do not believe that a deeper understanding of the scripture would be revealed to us by the spirit so we settle for what the words seem to be saying.

As Paul is explaining here, to be able ministers of the new testament, we must first understand that this ability is of God and not of ourselves.
He further explained that we are not suppose to settle for what the words seem to be saying or interpret by the letter. We are to expect revelation, a deeper understanding of the scriptures, that’s given by the spirit.

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:5-6

And TR, I don't see how Matt 11:27 proves your point at all.
Where exactly does it say that "Jesus has made it clear that no spiritual knowledge can be received through the human intellect. It has to be revealed by the Spirit." ? That sounds suspiciously like your own revelation.

Isn’t Jesus saying that He receives all things from the Father. Isn’t He also saying that no man knows the Son but the Father. Finally isn’t He also saying that no man knows the Father but the Son, with the exception of he to whom the Son has revealed Him.

Isn’t He saying very clearly here that no man will receive things from the Father (spiritual knowledge) except it’s revealed by Him.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt. 11:27

If you need more proof:

Jesus asked His disciples who do men say I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matt. 16:16

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 16:17

Notice Jesus is informing Peter here that “flesh and blood;” his human intellect hath not revealed this to him. This was revealed but my Father which is in heaven or by the spirit.

Of course it means that the true believers will not buy or sell. It's very clear. Why add to the scripture by putting in "it means being controlled by your thoughts and deeds". That is not what it is saying.

I’m not adding anything to the scripture.

The scripture says: they that serve the beast would have a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, but what does it mean?

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

Again you are settling for what the words seem to be saying.

Paul here again is talking about those who are unskilful in the word of righteousness, they that settle for what the words seem to be saying. And those that exercise discernment by the spirit to gain a deeper understanding of the scriptures.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb. 5:13-14

 

[TRWord]

It’s well over two thousand years since the Lord’s conversation with Nicodemus, and the idea of spirit is no longer new. There are few today like Nicodemus who know that they do not understand. Today anything that has to do with religion is loosely understood as being spiritual and faith in Christ is of a totally different understanding than it was to His disciples.

Then it was simple. It was what He said. His disciples faith was in His word.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

Most of us today have missed this understanding and so we have fallen victim to the minefield of beliefs that now surround us, and as He said we worship Him in vain.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:7-8

Jesus said:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt. 24:15

But what is, or where is the Holy place.

Like the word spirit, we toss around the word Holy, unaware that without the Holy Ghost we cannot understand what the word Holy means. We can only understand it as it’s dictionary meaning; dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose.

Jesus have instructed us as to how we would know that we have received the Holy Ghost.

He said:

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. John 14:20

He is explaining here, it’s when we receive the knowledge that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and they; “He and the Father” are in us.

It’s when we receive the revelation of the omnipresence of God.

This is why the disciples could not receive the Holy Ghost while Jesus was with them. They could not receive this revelation with Him standing before them. He had to go away first.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

When we have received the Holy Ghost we are forever in the presence of God, and when we are in the presence of the God, we stand in the Holy place.

 

[TRWord]

We have ascribed actions and attitudes to our Father in heaven which we would consider reprehensible if our next door neighbor was guilty of them.

We believe that God permitted a presence of evil in the garden with Adam. If our next door neighbor allowed a serpent in the nursery with his young child we would consider this a horrible act, yet we have ascribed this to a God of love.

We interpret the scriptures without considering the precept that God is love.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Is. 28:10

Did God warn Adam not to believe in good and evil even when there was an evil presence right there in the garden? Or did Adam upon being tempted chose to rely on his own understanding, believing that the serpent was evil, instead of trusting God’s caution against the knowledge of good and evil?

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:16-17

Just like Adam’s transgression, we misunderstand Christ’s mission because again we ignore that God is love.

So did our Father demand a payment for sin, and was Christ’s death on the cross that payment? Or did our Father sacrifice His only begotten Son to show us the way to life, to save us from the consequence of Adam’s transgression which led to death?

The devil is a deceiver, and we are deceived, because Adam before us was deceived by believing in good and evil.

Jesus came to undo what Adam had done. He taught us to: Resist not evil:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matt. 5:38-39

By not resisting evil on the way to the cross, even unto death, Jesus demonstrated His unwavering obedience to the Father.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19

And unlike Adam, Jesus did not succumb to the temptation of believing in good and evil, He came to bear witness to the truth of the omnipotence of the Father.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto us his servants, declare the things which must shortly come to pass. Things which clearly will set us free, but like Adam’s transgression and Christ mission we have also misunderstood the coming of the Lord.

First, we await the marriage of the Lamb, the advent of the kingdom of God. But before this, all that oppose Him, and have brought tribulation to the earth, the beast and the false prophet; must be cast away.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev. 19:20

Second, we have been deceived by the knowledge of good and evil, but with the coming of the Lord the truth of the omnipotence of God shall be revealed.

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Rev. 19:6

Our own unbelief, the tempter, which have deceived us all along into choosing our understanding instead of trusting our Father, will be cast away.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20:10

Third, as God had cautioned Adam, the consequence of the knowledge of good and evil was death. But as Jesus has promised us, we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. The knowledge of the omnipotence of God will dispel the knowledge of good and evil freeing us from it’s consequence of death.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev.
20:14

 

[Breezee]

Breezee this has nothing to do with people who claim to have special revelations. It’s a fact that most of us do not believe in revelation. We do not believe that a deeper understanding of the scripture would be revealed to us by the spirit so we settle for what the words seem to be saying.

I don't have a problem with "deeper meanings", as long as they don't contradict with the meaning of the actual scriptures. What I find annoying is that people seem to like to play games with words, like "if we say this word represents this and that word represents that then we can see that the scripture means this". Changing the meanings of words does not (IMO) constitute a deeper understanding. I'm fine for people to have THEORIES but lets be clear that they are just theories about deeper meanings, not facts.

As Paul is explaining here, to be able ministers of the new testament, we must first understand that this ability is of God and not of ourselves.
He further explained that we are not suppose to settle for what the words seem to be saying or interpret by the letter. We are to expect revelation, a deeper understanding of the scriptures, that’s given by the spirit.

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:5-6

we are not suppose to settle for what the words seem to be saying

Well that's a doozie! What are we supposed to do if we are not allowed to just read something and take it on face value? That's just leaving yourself open to chaos! God did give us brains too you know!

I did not like the way you used 2 Cor 3:5-6 to try and support your position. The context is Paul writing to the Corinthians and saying that he cannot boast because all his knowledge and ability comes from God.

The meaning becomes clearer in the modern translations:

2 Cor 3:5

NKJV
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,

NIV
Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

2 Cor 3:6

NKJV
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;* for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The reason the Old Testament brought death was because people became self righteous and assumed that they were right with God simply because they followed the Law. What God wants us to do is to understand what he was trying to achieve through the Law. That is to understand "the Spirit of the Law". The phrase "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" means that we should not obsess over the words he used but ask the Spirit to show us what they mean. However that does not mean, that we can go hunting for a different meaning when the meaning is clear.

Isn’t Jesus saying that He receives all things from the Father. Isn’t He also saying that no man knows the Son but the Father. Finally isn’t He also saying that no man knows the Father but the Son, with the exception of he to whom the Son has revealed Him.

Isn’t He saying very clearly here that no man will receive things from the Father (spiritual knowledge) except it’s revealed by Him.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt. 11:27

If you need more proof:

Jesus asked His disciples who do men say I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matt. 16:16

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 16:17

Notice Jesus is informing Peter here that “flesh and blood;” his human intellect hath not revealed this to him. This was revealed but my Father which is in heaven or by the spirit.

Couldn't "Flesh and Blood" also just mean "humans". That is "no human has revealed this to you". You are tweeking it a bit to make it fit with your interpretation, IMO.
As I made clear my earlier posts, I believe in revelation and it's obvious that Jesus and his disciples did too. What I am opposing here is trying to spiritualise parts of scripture, to support your personal interpretation, while throwing out the literal translation (As you have done with the Mark of the Beast Prophecy).
Your interpretation MAY be valid in some ways, but it does not excuse teaching people to stop waiting for the actual physical fulfilment of the prophecy.

I’m not adding anything to the scripture.

The scripture says: they that serve the beast would have a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, but what does it mean?

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

Again you are settling for what the words seem to be saying.

You know what I think it means, and it makes perfect sense to me. What I don't understand is why YOU must keep searching for some more esoteric interpretation. Is there some reason why you can't just accept the most obvious interpretation?
You say that you are not adding anything to scripture, but if that is not what you are doing, then what ARE you doing?

Paul here again is talking about those who are unskilful in the word of righteousness, they that settle for what the words seem to be saying. And those that exercise discernment by the spirit to gain a deeper understanding of the scriptures.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb. 5:13-14

What are you saying TR? So now I'm a babe? Nice.

 

[Breezee]

It’s well over two thousand years since the Lord’s conversation with Nicodemus, and the idea of spirit is no longer new. There are few today like Nicodemus who know that they do not understand. Today anything that has to do with religion is loosely understood as being spiritual and faith in Christ is of a totally different understanding than it was to His disciples.

Then it was simple. It was what He said. His disciples faith was in His word.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

Hey! Isn't that what I have been saying?
It's nice to see that we can actually agree on something. Absolutely! Being a christian is all about following Jesus words, like the early disciples did.

Most of us today have missed this understanding and so we have fallen victim to the minefield of beliefs that now surround us, and as He said we worship Him in vain.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:7-8

That sounds right. People laying aside what God says in favour of their own man made interpretations.

Jesus said:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt. 24:15

But what is, or where is the Holy place.

Like the word spirit, we toss around the word Holy, unaware that without the Holy Ghost we cannot understand what the word Holy means. We can only understand it as it’s dictionary meaning; dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose.

Jesus have instructed us as to how we would know that we have received the Holy Ghost.

He said:

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. John 14:20

He is explaining here, it’s when we receive the knowledge that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and they; “He and the Father” are in us.

It’s when we receive the revelation of the omnipresence of God.

This is why the disciples could not receive the Holy Ghost while Jesus was with them. They could not receive this revelation with Him standing before them. He had to go away first.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

When we have received the Holy Ghost we are forever in the presence of God, and when we are in the presence of the God, we stand in the Holy place.

Oh come off it! What about the context? What do all the other prophetic references to world events in Matt 24 mean then?
You can't just ignore the rest of Matt 24 and expect us to accept that "the Holy place" Jesus is referring to in this prophecy is us.
What about the context?

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake


Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

These are real things that Jesus says are going to happen. Why spiritualise the Mark of the Beast and not the rest of the passage?

The literal interpretation prepares us for the wost. Your interpretation gives us a false sense of security.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

[Breezee]

I know we have been having our differences TR, but I was genuinely interested in what you had to say about the harlot of Babylon.
I too think she represents an economic system which has been dominating the world but is going to collapse.

The sign of the coming of the Lord has been a burning question even back when Jesus walked the earth. Even then his disciples were seeking a definitive sign that would mean “any day now.”

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Matt. 24:3

Peter attempted to dispel this idea of a sign that would mean “any day now” by reminding us: be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:7-8

Jesus told His disciples that no man knew the day and the hour not even the angels in heaven. The Father alone knows.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt. 24:36

However, Jesus did give us a very important sign, He said: When we see the desolation or destruction of that which has been an abomination in the earth, stand in the holy place.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt. 24:15

The scripture has defined the city of Babylon as an abomination in the earth.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev. 17:4-5

Described as the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: It’s very important that we unveil this figure, because when she is destroyed we’ll know that the time is near.

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Rev. 17:1-2

The scripture explains that the many waters are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues, which is telling us that her influence is over the whole world, all it’s people, regardless of language or nationality.

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Revelations 17:15KJV)

She is also described as that great city that reign over the kings of the earth. In other words she rule over even “the most prominent men ” in the earth.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:18

Through her the rulers of the earth have lived lavishly and those that buy and sell have been made rich.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. Rev. 18:3

However, after she has been destroyed buying and selling stops.

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: (Revelation 18:11KJV)

Clearly the scripture is saying here that the world system which was dedicated to the amassing of wealth has collapsed.

For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. (Revelation 18:17-19KJV)

 

[TRWord]

I don't have a problem with "deeper meanings", as long as they don't contradict with the meaning of the actual scriptures. What I find annoying is that people seem to like to play games with words, like "if we say this word represents this and that word represents that then we can see that the scripture means this". Changing the meanings of words does not (IMO) constitute a deeper understanding. I'm fine for people to have THEORIES but lets be clear that they are just theories about deeper meanings, not facts.

You believe that a literal understanding is “the meaning of the actual scriptures,” and you said that you have no problem with “deeper meanings” as long as they do not contradict the meaning of the actual scriptures. Isn’t this the same as saying that there is no deeper meaning than a literal one.
A deeper understandings can only be received through the spirit but by obsessing over the words you have denied the spirit.
Breezee the absolute first requirement is we must receive the spirit. Jesus Christ is the word, it’s not the words on a page. A perfect understanding isn’t gained from the literal word but from “the Word,” the spirit of Christ in us.

Well that's a doozie! What are we supposed to do if we are not allowed to just read something and take it on face value? That's just leaving yourself open to chaos! God did give us brains too you know!

Yes God gave us a brain but our brain is not the correct tool for interpreting the scripture. To interpret the scripture properly we need the spirit.

I did not like the way you used 2 Cor 3:5-6 to try and support your position. The context is Paul writing to the Corinthians and saying that he cannot boast because all his knowledge and ability comes from God.

This is not my position. This is repeated again and again throughout the scriptures. Notice Paul again writing to the Corinthians is saying here, it’s not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth. He goes on saying, the natural man; “man without the spirit,” receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: because they are spiritually discerned.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:13-14

The meaning becomes clearer in the modern translations:
The reason the Old Testament brought death was because people became self righteous and assumed that they were right with God simply because they followed the Law. What God wants us to do is to understand what he was trying to achieve through the Law. That is to understand "the Spirit of the Law". The phrase "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" means that we should not obsess over the words he used but ask the Spirit to show us what they mean. However that does not mean, that we can go hunting for a different meaning when the meaning is clear.

Notice you are saying what the phase means but in practice you do obsess over the words instead of looking to the spirit to reveal the meaning.

You also said that the meaning becomes clearer in the modern translations. Aren’t you saying that the the modern versions of the Bible lend themselves more readily to a literal interpretation.
Most of the so called modern translations are not translations at all, they are reinterpretations. A translation is when a writing is actually translated from one language to another, example from Hebrew or Greek to English. When it’s reinterpreted into the same language it’s a new version.

Couldn't "Flesh and Blood" also just mean "humans". That is "no human has revealed this to you". You are tweeking it a bit to make it fit with your interpretation, IMO.

“Flesh and blood” is the natural man, “man without the spirit.”

Notice what Paul is saying here using “flesh and blood”:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50

As I made clear my earlier posts, I believe in revelation and it's obvious that Jesus and his disciples did too. What I am opposing here is trying to spiritualise parts of scripture, to support your personal interpretation, while throwing out the literal translation (As you have done with the Mark of the Beast Prophecy).
Your interpretation MAY be valid in some ways, but it does not excuse teaching people to stop waiting for the actual physical fulfilment of the prophecy.

_to spiritualize means to elevate to a spiritual level.

Isn’t that what we are suppose to do with the scriptures.

The scriptures are elevated to a spiritual level when they are interpreted by the spirit and this is done by revelation. You cannot say you believe in revelation when you interpret the scriptures literally. There is no revelation where there is a literal interpretation.

You know what I think it means, and it makes perfect sense to me. What I don't understand is why YOU must keep searching for some more esoteric interpretation. Is there some reason why you can't just accept the most obvious interpretation?
You say that you are not adding anything to scripture, but if that is not what you are doing, then what ARE you doing?

Yes...obedience. We are commanded to: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
A great deal of scripture does not present what you called a obvious interpretation. In this case we have to understand, what is the mark of the beast, what is the name of the beast and what’s the number of his name.

When we trust our own understanding, we ignore everything that does not present what you called a most obvious interpretation.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16-17

What are you saying TR? So now I'm a babe? Nice.

*Please note no one is saying that you are a babe.

Paul is speaking here. He is informing us that there are two levels of interpretation. One of those who are unskilful in the word of righteousness and another of those who through practice have exercised their senses to discern the spirit.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb. 5:13-14

 

[TRWord]

Many of us are unable to accept the fact that our Father loves us unconditionally. And this is because we continue to hang on to the old testament image of the Father.

Jesus came to reveal the true image of God. He taught us to put away the old ways, and to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, and pray for them which despitefully use us, and persecute us. Why? So that we may be the children of our Father.

He is teaching us here, to love unconditionally, so that we can be like our Father in heaven.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matt. 5:43-45

(Matthew 25:14-30)

To highlight the importance of us having the correct image of God by knowing His true nature, Jesus is using a parable here to illustrate how a servant’s image of his master affects their relationship.

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Matt. 25:14-15

Notice two of the servant's view of their master was such that they felt authorized to trade his talents while he was gone. The third servant however, he took no chances with his masters money he dug a hole and buried it.

Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. Matt. 25:16-18

When the master returned he was quite please with the two servants that had traded his talents earning more, and he rewarded them.

Saying to them; Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

The third servant however, saw his master as a hard man so he was afraid of the consequence of losing his money so he buried it.

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. Matt. 25:24-25

The third servant’s image of his master kept him in fear, and that fear prevented him from receiving that which his master gave him freely.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. Matt. 25:26-28

Because he saw his master as a hard man he didn’t have much of a relationship with him and therefore he received the least of what the master gave freely. Now even that has been taken from him.

For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matt. 25:29

Clearly, Jesus is alluding to those of us that know the Father as love and those that know Him as wrath and vengeance. One remain in bondage to fear and the other has received the spirit of adoption, whereby they God Father.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Rom. 8:15

 

[TRWord]

The scripture tells us that we were created in the image of our Father, and Jesus now has revealed how our image of our Father affects the way we relate to Him.

Jesus taught us to forgive seventy times seven.

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Matt. 18:21-22

He also taught us to love even our enemies.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matt. 5:44

He taught us to love and forgive because our Father is love and forgiveness. Jesus isn’t teaching us to be more loving or forgiving than our Father. We cannot be more just or pure than our creator.

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Job 4:17

We frequently ask the question, which came first, the chicken or the egg, in this case it’s clear, a correct image of the Father must come first. Those of us who do not have a correct image of the Father cannot receive His love and forgiveness which is freely given.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor. 2:12

If we do not know God as love and forgiveness, we continue our battle against sin missing Christ’s message that we are to seek the kingdom of God first, which is all inclusive, even of our victory over sin.

Our image of God also directly affects the way we interpret the scriptures. Those of us who know God as retribution and punishment continue to interpret His judgement as His wrath unleashed upon the earth.

The prophesy is:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matt. 24:21-22

Clearly Jesus is saying that man’s way will bring great tribulation to the earth and except those days are shortened, or unless these days are put to an end, mankind will not be saved.

Those who cannot receive our Father’s forgiveness have misunderstood Christ’s passion as a payment to God for sin. And even though the devil was defeated at calvary; wounded to death, they remained deceived, seeing the devil as an evil force in the earth, his deadly wound is healed.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev. 13:3

And even though it’s written that death and hell shall be no more, being cast away in a lake of fire, those of us who know our Father as retribution and punishment continue to be fearful of burning in hell.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev. 20:14

 

[Hopes]

Faith

Now that we have been led to Christ it’s absolutely necessary that we understand faith.

(For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) (2 Cor. 5:7KJV)

In most dictionaries belief and faith are considered to be synonymous, and while this is literally true, “the faith” that’s required for the spiritual journey is of an entirely different understanding than the faith of the dictionary.

Faith is the willingness to: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5KJV)

It’s the willingness to hold steadfastly to the “TRUTH,” even when what we see is the absolute opposite.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24KJV)

Faith is the belief in revelation: The willingness to accept that we do not yet understand, and be confident that the understanding would be revealed to us.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. John 16:13KJV

And most of all it’s the belief in the supremacy of spirit over the things of the earth, which is the keys to the kingdom.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19KJV)

Faith takes us beyond the limits of human understanding. Without it we can neither receive the message of Jesus Christ, nor all that He promised.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12KJV)

Wow really really good. I know I don't quite understand what's going on but I am slowly trying to understand what He wants me to do. I am still pretty new at this stuff. I am just letting Him lead the way and hoping I can be worthy.

 

[Breezee]

When I say that you are "spiritualising" the scriptures. I do not mean it in a good way. I do not think the scriptures need to be "spiritualised".
What I meant was your interpretations have made the Mark of the Beast prophecy into something intangible and abstract, when I don't think that is the intention of the passage.

You say;

The scriptures are elevated to a spiritual level when they are interpreted by the spirit and this is done by revelation. You cannot say you believe in revelation when you interpret the scriptures literally. There is no revelation where there is a literal interpretation.

So you are saying that when we read the Bible, we are not supposed to take anything on face value? That must be confusing for you.

 

[Hopes]

I thought he meant this

Faith is the belief in revelation: The willingness to accept that we do not yet understand, and be confident that the understanding would be revealed to us.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

From opening post:

Those who have received the message of Jesus Christ are no longer under the law. Of course this does not mean that they are free to sin.

We sin because we are separated from God and therefore the only solution to sin is that we be reconciled with Him.

So, the answer of course is to stay reconciled with God and be filled with His Holy Spirit, so we will always live by the power of His Holy Spirit and no longer satisfy the desires of the flesh, but live for Him only.

By faith we can receive the fullness of Christ, by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which will then keep us from falling - God's promise to us.

Living by the Law will bring death and will keep a person in bondage to sin, but living by faith and living by the power of the Holy Spirit will enable us to love God and His Truth so much that we will never sin against Him again.

This is what Christ meant by His coming, which actually fulfilled the Law. He paid the price the Law required and then He gave us the power to do all the commandments of God in His pure love that He imparts in us.

 

[TRWord]

When I say that you are "spiritualising" the scriptures. I do not mean it in a good way. I do not think the scriptures need to be "spiritualised".

You don’t think that the scriptures should be elevated to a spiritual level? And how could the scriptures be spiritualized in any other way than a good way. Are you suggesting that the scriptures can be spiritualized in any other way but by spirit.

What I meant was your interpretations have made the Mark of the Beast prophecy into something intangible and abstract, when I don't think that is the intention of the passage.

What is intangible or abstract about the fact that we have to know the name of the beast and the number of his name. How can we be sure that we are not serving the beast if we don’t know who or what it is?

The scripture says: All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, and he have been given power to overcome the saints.

A literal understanding of the mark blinds us to everything else.

Here we are being given the necessary wisdom to unmask the beast so that we may know who or what it is.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev. 13:18

But those who have as you said have taken the mark of the beast at face value are unable to receive the wisdom being offered here.

So you are saying that when we read the Bible, we are not supposed to take anything on face value? That must be confusing for you.

I’m sure you would consider it wise if you were faced with a legal document not to settle for your understanding or take it at face value. I’d bet that you would seek an attorney to interpret it for you.

It’s also wise to seek the interpreter of the scriptures and not to settle for your understanding or take it at face value.

 

[TRWord]

Why did Jesus teach primarily by parables? Also why is much of the scriptures given as parables? And why so few of us have acknowledge this fact, and fewer still have wondered why.

The book of Job begins with God and Satan in a wager, with poor Job as the pawn, yet most of us are unable to recognize this as a parable.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:7-8

The idea of God in a wager with Satan should be enough to give any believer pause, and even though the scripture plainly says that the book of Job is a parable, most of us have missed this as well.

Moreover Job continued his parable, and said, Job 27:1

Jesus disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitude in parables and He answered them saying, it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Matt. 13:10-11

Why were the disciples able to know the mysteries of the kingdom while the multitude was not?

Jesus explained this from the very beginning: Except we receive the spirit we cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Since Jesus spoke these words to Nicodemus, “being born again” can have a host of meanings, but Jesus meant we have to receive the spirit to know the mysteries of the kingdom.

Obviously the message is given to us in parables because we need the spirit to receive it.

Job’s parable tells us the same thing, we need a messenger, an interpreter to show us the way to uprightness.

If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show unto man his uprightness: Job 33:23

An understanding of the scriptures other than a literal one, is the first evidence of the birth of the Spirit because this new understanding is spiritually discerned.

 

[MeirDavid]

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[Hopes]

Why did Jesus teach primarily by parables? Also why is much of the scriptures given as parables? And why so few of us have acknowledge this fact, and fewer still have wondered why.

The book of Job begins with God and Satan in a wager, with poor Job as the pawn, yet most of us are unable to recognize this as a parable.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:7-8

The idea of God in a wager with Satan should be enough to give any believer pause, and even though the scripture plainly says that the book of Job is a parable, most of us have missed this as well.

Moreover Job continued his parable, and said, Job 27:1

Jesus disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitude in parables and He answered them saying, it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Matt. 13:10-11

Why were the disciples able to know the mysteries of the kingdom while the multitude was not?

Jesus explained this from the very beginning: Except we receive the spirit we cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Since Jesus spoke these words to Nicodemus, “being born again” can have a host of meanings, but Jesus meant we have to receive the spirit to know the mysteries of the kingdom.

Obviously the message is given to us in parables because we need the spirit to receive it.

Job’s parable tells us the same thing, we need a messenger, an interpreter to show us the way to uprightness.

If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show unto man his uprightness: Job 33:23

An understanding of the scriptures other than a literal one, is the first evidence of the birth of the Spirit because this new understanding is spiritually discerned.

I think Job is an example of the lion and the Lamb. Satan comes as a roaring lion but is no match for the Lamb. I think Satan will make a good coat or a footstool hes not good for much else.

 

[Norah63]

Getting back to this thread today, it is very interesting read.
Once in a while I wanted to chime in but then Breezee would say it better than I could, so I just read on.
There may be more of us that have the Holy Spirit leading us than first supposed.
Respecting each other is a step of a mature christian.
If we really do ever have the decision of taking a mark or not, only then will we show forth our faith.