Something About Mary

[Thekla]

I was a young teen when I had that emabarrassing crush K? That was over 30 years ago, thats all lost on me now.

I stole his poster outside of the King of prussia PA movie theatre when I was younger, I was nuts (what can I say?)

Ever get back to Phila. area ? You must know, there's a statue of him outside the Philadelphia Art Museum (or was - haven't been there in a while).

(I am old - I was no teen 30 years ago, that's for sure )

 

[Thekla]

Here's a nightmare for you

seems the statue is still at the art museum

(it's gonna give me nightmares )

g'night, and pleasant dreams instead

God with us +

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ever get back to Phila. area ? You must know, there's a statue of him outside the Philadelphia Art Museum (or was - haven't been there in a while).

(I am old - I was no teen 30 years ago, that's for sure )

Yeah I have seen it, as with religious statues same goes for Rocky I was not impressed. I wanted that poster advertising the realistic picture of him at the movie theatre. So much so I coveted it and the stoled it.

I have sinned sins in this area as a fiesty undiscplined teeny bopper

 

[Thekla]

Yeah I have seen it, as with religious statues same goes for Rocky I was not impressed. I wanted that poster advertising the realistic picture of him at the movie theatre. So much so I coveted it and the stoled it.

I have sinned sins in this area as a fiesty undiscplined teeny bopper

Youth is a hard master in our older years - wasn't so feisty as a teen, but I for sure had my moments !

 

[Fireinfolding]

Here's a nightmare for you

seems the statue is still at the art museum

(it's gonna give me nightmares )

g'night, and pleasant dreams instead

God with us +

Yeah, thats creepy too lol

 

[Albion]

There is a key difference. There is a Tradition in both of ours, which is why there are very few divisions among us.

Oh dear. Truth is, there are far more divisions among the Traditionist churches than among the Bible-oriented ones.

Every one of the Traditionist/Catholic communions has its very own version of God's revelation and considers the ones believed by each of the other ones to be wrong. But their activists never fail to claim that they are united, undivided, etc. unlike those Protestant churches, almost all of which still hold to the essentials of the Reformation: Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, the two Sacraments of the Gospel, and one mediator only between the Father and Man, the Lord Jesus.

But the Evangelical Protestant is his own Pope.

No different from the Eastern Orthodox churches.

If you don't need a Pope, even though human opinion, myth, custom, and legend are accepted parts of your belief system, why on Earth would you suppose that we who trust the Word of God to be sufficient for Man's guidance would need one??

 

[sunlover1]

Yeah I have seen it, as with religious statues same goes for Rocky I was not impressed. I wanted that poster advertising the realistic picture of him at the movie theatre. So much so I coveted it and the stoled it.

I have sinned sins in this area as a fiesty undiscplined teeny bopper

I've been to Philly but never saw the statue.
Used to live in Allegheny Twnshp at Robert Morris!
Wait, that was moon twnshp.
Allegheny was prettier iirc lol

 

[Fireinfolding]

I've been to Philly but never saw the statue.
Used to live in Allegheny Twnshp at Robert Morris!
Wait, that was moon twnshp.
Allegheny was prettier iirc lol

Used to be at a ball park or stadium or something like that I forget, it was very unimpressionable.

Well, yunno...If youve seen one statue of a man youve seen them all basically. They all have ears, eyes, noses, mouths. The artists best shot of trying to get whoever it is like their object.

 

[sculleywr]

So now even your division is a cut above ??? LOL ~you silly


OH well then by all means, your division is better division



"not many"??
You mean zero don't you?

No. I mean the true visible Body of Christ has zero divisions. The Church was established without division, and the Church continued in that unity in perfect doctrinal agreement with all its true members. I am not the one that said there is only one Church. God did. I am not the one that said there is one Doctrine. God did.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. If the Church is a nebulous group of "all people who truly believe in Christ, then the Church cannot be what Scripture calls it. The only way that the Church can be that is if she is of one mind with one confession.

 

[sculleywr]

Oh dear. Truth is, there are far more divisions among the Traditionist churches than among the Bible-oriented ones.

Every one of the Traditionist/Catholic communions has its very own version of God's revelation and considers the ones believed by each of the other ones to be wrong. But their activists never fail to claim that they are united, undivided, etc. unlike those Protestant churches, almost all of which still hold to the essentials of the Reformation: Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, the two Sacraments of the Gospel, and one mediator only between the Father and Man, the Lord Jesus.


No different from the Eastern Orthodox churches.

If you don't need a Pope, even though human opinion, myth, custom, and legend are accepted parts of your belief system, why on Earth would you suppose that we who trust the Word of God to be sufficient for Man's guidance would need one??

Really, you mean there are more than 20'000 Catholic divisions? I'd like to see this one.

Also, we are not our own popes. We are led by the whole of the Church in past and present. No one singular leader, and no individualistic personal interpreting. It is a lie at worst to state that we are our own popes. For one, the position the Pope has now is a Western invention of the last 200 years.

Finally, while Protestants CLAIM to be Sola Scriptura, they never truly follow that doctrine. We can even start with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself. The Scripture never gives an EXCLUSIVE command to use only Scripture.

We could also question the canon of Scripture with the new-found freedom of Sola Scriptura. Protestants claim that they use the New Testament to confirm the OT canon. Well, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon are never quoted in the New Testament. By all logic, since they are not quoted in the New Testament, they should not be in the OT. Obviously this isn't the criteria used by most Christians, but if I really wanted to, using Sola Scriptura, I could say whatever I wanted to concerning those books, because it is ultimately me, myself, and I who decides what God was saying. Oh yes, and I have the catch-all defense that the Holy Spirit told me to remove those books.

The phrase "Faith alone" is also a tradition, as the only time the phrase is found in Scripture is as a NEGATIVE:

So you see, brothers, that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith alone.

See, in the end, Evangelical Protestants have their own traditions that they follow, under the guise of interpretations and exegesis. If you get right down to the meat of it, it is all tradition. We are not discussing your interpretation versus Tradition. We are discussing Tradition versus traditions.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I'm officially bored to tears, so unsubscribing

 

[Metal Minister]

Finally, while Protestants CLAIM to be Sola Scriptura, they never truly follow that doctrine. We can even start with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself. The Scripture never gives an EXCLUSIVE command to use only Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:15-17: "For from thy infancy thou hast known the Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instruction in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work."
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Matthew 4:1-11 note that Jesus always says 'it is written" not "I say" or "tradition teaches". As a matter of fact, the teaching of anything other than sola scriptura would be hard to prove.

We could also question the canon of Scripture with the new-found freedom of Sola Scriptura. Protestants claim that they use the New Testament to confirm the OT canon. Well, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon are never quoted in the New Testament. By all logic, since they are not quoted in the New Testament, they should not be in the OT. Obviously this isn't the criteria used by most Christians, but if I really wanted to, using Sola Scriptura, I could say whatever I wanted to concerning those books, because it is ultimately me, myself, and I who decides what God was saying. Oh yes, and I have the catch-all defense that the Holy Spirit told me to remove those books.

No. And this proves a fundamental ignorance of the doctrine of sola scriptura.

The phrase "Faith alone" is also a tradition, as the only time the phrase is found in Scripture is as a NEGATIVE:

So you see, brothers, that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith alone.

Hey, way to cherry pick the tired, out of context, stand by from James.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
(Most of Romans reads like this)

See, in the end, Evangelical Protestants have their own traditions that they follow, under the guise of interpretations and exegesis. If you get right down to the meat of it, it is all tradition. We are not discussing your interpretation versus Tradition. We are discussing Tradition versus traditions.

No.
Tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven.
Tradition says Jesus is sacrificed again and again in the mass.
Tradition says Mary was sinless.
Tradition says the pope is the head of the church.
Tradition says infant baptism imparts grace.
Tradition says priests must remain unmarried.
Tradition says...etc, etc, etc....ad infinitum.

The scriptures do not say any of this. Sola scriptura means the scriptures are the last word (no pun intended) on doctrine and practice. I think in the end, all that's been highlighted is your lack of understanding when it comes to sola scriptura.

 

[Metal Minister]

I'm officially bored to tears, so unsubscribing

I'm with you. I had hoped that this thread would contain different material, but it seems there is nothing new under the sun. Also unsubscribing

 

[Albion]

Really, you mean there are more than 20'000 Catholic divisions? I'd like to see this one.

There are many hundreds of them, yes.

Also, we are not our own popes. We are led by the whole of the Church in past and present.

You aren't led at all. That is my point. We who do not have a Pope, have the Word of God. But you, who also do not have a Pope, really need one to decide which devout opinion, legend, or piece of folklore is to be interpreted which way.

It is a lie at worst to state that we are our own popes.

Well, you're the one who thought it so cute to make that claim. I just pointed out that if we don't have one, you don't either.

That fact makes a strange basis for belittling reformed Christianity, if you only knew.

Finally, while Protestants CLAIM to be Sola Scriptura, they never truly follow that doctrine.

Actually, they do. Unfortunately, members of the unreformed churches are taught that they don't adhere to it. But that is just propaganda IMO. My advice always is to try to rise above it.

 

[Albion]

Tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven.
Tradition says Jesus is sacrificed again and again in the mass.
Tradition says Mary was sinless.
Tradition says the pope is the head of the church.
Tradition says infant baptism imparts grace.
Tradition says priests must remain unmarried.
Tradition says...etc, etc, etc....ad infinitum.

The scriptures do not say any of this. Sola scriptura means the scriptures are the last word (no pun intended) on doctrine and practice. I think in the end, all that's been highlighted is your lack of understanding when it comes to sola scriptura.

Quite right. Those are all doctrines derived from Tradition rather than from Scripture. HOWEVER, it's not as though the Tradition/Catholic denominations agree on most of them, despite what their members say!

Eastern Orthodox priests almost MUST be married, while Roman Catholic ones are prohibited from it. The assumption of Mary is a Roman doctrine but the EO say that's wrong--yet both claim that it's the same "Tradition" that they are working from. As we know, one has the Pope; the other reviles the idea. And so it goes.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I was a young teen when I had that emabarrassing crush K? That was over 30 years ago, thats all lost on me now.

I stole his poster outside of the King of prussia PA movie theatre when I was younger, I was nuts (what can I say?)

Yeah I have seen it, as with religious statues same goes for Rocky I was not impressed. I wanted that poster advertising the realistic picture of him at the movie theatre. So much so I coveted it and the stoled it.

I have sinned sins in this area as a fiesty undiscplined teeny bopper

I know a woman in our area who is friends with the Stallones.
Appears they are mere humans with troubles like all.

However; asked if i would like to meet them - not so much.
I dnt have star gazing eyes... even tho the guy is nice.

I guess i could still meet him if i befriended her - but that's kinda of using someone.. ya think?

I've been to Philly but never saw the statue.
Used to live in Allegheny Twnshp at Robert Morris!
Wait, that was moon twnshp.
Allegheny was prettier iirc lol

Ahhhh - so you are or were my neighbor?
You were a Burgher at one time? Still are?
Steelers fan?


I live a bit away now - but family reside in Burgh - once a Burgher - always a Burgher. Primanti's burgher?
Not my favorite. I live nearby the flight 93 ....crash.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Quite right. Those are all doctrines derived from Tradition rather than from Scripture. HOWEVER, it's not as though the Tradition/Catholic denominations agree on most of them, despite what their members say!

Eastern Orthodox priests almost MUST be married, while Roman Catholic ones are prohibited from it. The assumption of Mary is a Roman doctrine but the EO say that's wrong--yet both claim that it's the same "Tradition" that they are working from. As we know, one has the Pope; the other reviles the idea. And so it goes.

You misunderstand the priesthood of the EO.
They are not required to be married.
In order to become a Bishop - one must be a priest first... and Bishops are not married in the EO. Nor are the Patriarchs.
One cannot get to be prelates if they are married - so the ones unmarried are the ones who become Bishops.

Assumption of Mary derived from tradition - tho the name is different - it is also the Dormition that the EC call it.

Here is the 'difference' between the two - the EO havent expounded on Traditional doctrines - whereas the Pope has defined them.
Tho - the EO have n older understanding - derived from the same place and time as the CC - the Pope's charism is to carry on in teaching [and always was his place to do so] on what Tradition means.

So - we can look at the EO as how the ancient's spoke - but we look to the CC to understand these things in our terms... and terms to define them due to understanding them.

Interesting to note - if anyone is familiar with Lourdes - which i doubt... but after the Pope pronounced the Immaculate Conception - a girl - who didnt get much schooling in due to her health received apparitions from Our Lady stating she was 'The Immaculate Conception' to which this girl nor the school had taught nor she learned of it yet.
To prove it true - she dug in the dirt and water came out - to create a grotto... where many miracles have occurred. The worst cases were healed. The invalid walked - the sick were healed and it still happens today.

Perhaps God's way of saying 'I shall prove my chosen son's decree - man has an understanding and let it be proven in miracles as i have proven I worked of the Father.'
A house cannot stand if it works against itself. Christ's reply to those who suggested He used demons to exorcise demons.

Miracles of demons - if used in 'blessings' by wiccans cannot help of this magnitude nor can they last long... the illness returns worse.

 

[Albion]

You misunderstand the priesthood of the EO.
They are not required to be married.

Did I say that they are "required to be married?" No, I did not.

But in practice, it is expected. Even if it were not, their priests ARE customarily married while yours in the Latin rite are prohibited from being married.

Assumption of Mary derived from tradition - tho the name is different - it is also the Dormition that the EC call it.

The point is that the two churches have different stories about what happened to Mary or her body, yet they both claim to have followed "Tradition."

Or we could take the matter of the Immaculate Conception. The EO have one teaching, the RC another, and the Old Catholics have no position on it at all.

 

[Standing Up]

Did I say that they are "required to be married?" No, I did not.

But in practice, it is expected. Even if it were not, their priests ARE customarily married while yours in the Latin rite are prohibited from being married.


The point is that the two churches have different stories about what happened to Mary or her body, yet they both claim to have followed "Tradition."

Or we could take the matter of the Immaculate Conception. The EO have one teaching, the RC another, and the Old Catholics have no position on it at all.

There's so many different Traditions, I don't understand why people keep bringing it up that they have The Tradition and everyone else is false. Except that's what they believe; they just can't say so explicitely.

 

[sunlover1]

No. I mean the true visible Body of Christ has zero divisions.

There is only one church.
And it seems to be divided.

The Church was established without division, and the Church continued in that unity in perfect doctrinal agreement with all its true members.

Not according to Scripture.
Paul was already scolding about division to the church at corinth.
I hear that when you come together as a church,
there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.

I am not the one that said there is only one Church. God did. I am not the one that said there is one Doctrine. God did.

He did!
And nothing's new under the sun is it?
1 Corinthians 3:3
You are still worldly.
For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you,
are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. If the Church is a nebulous group of "all people who truly believe in Christ, then the Church cannot be what Scripture calls it. The only way that the Church can be that is if she is of one mind with one confession.

You're free to believe whatever you like, but when Paul calls them ALL
brothers and then scolds them for NOT being of one mind, well I gotta
believe that he was telling the truth.
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

He's speaking TO the church
He's begging them to be united in mind and thought.
Why's he scolding them?
Because there are divisions.

I can understand why the others unsubscribe.
No one is buying this story you're selling.
My sect is better, my sect is THE sect to beat all sects.
There's only ONE sect and mine's IT.
And MY division isn't as bad as your division.
And tbh, that's a sad message to cling to.

I encourage you to preach unity.