Returning to the Orthodox faith?

[Yoder777]

This is clever:

On this side of eternity, we can grasp for absolute truth, but nothing is absolutely certain aside from meeting Jesus face to face in the world to come. There are personal reasons every person has in whatever church tradition they choose, but I have yet to see unequivocal proof that any one church tradition is the exclusively true church.

 

[Lukaris]

What is your conclusion as to where you would partake of the Eucharist?

 

[Yoder777]

What is your conclusion as to where you would partake of the Eucharist?

I feel the most comfortable in the Catholic Church. I thought that having the deacon of the Orthodox church to which I once belonged calling me out of the blue to invite me to a men's breakfast was a sign from God to return to Orthodoxy, but perhaps it simply means that you shouldn't forget who your friends are, even if you've been led to another faith.

Incidently, I called him yesterday to ask when the next men's breakfast will be, and explained to him my predicament, and he saw no reason why I shouldn't attend church functions as a fellow Christian, even if I am led to the Catholic faith in which I was raised.

This is a prickly situation for me, because even though I don't believe that either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church is exclusively the one true church, and though I see no reason why there should be divisions between them, the official leaders of these churches disagree with me, and prefer that I choose one over the other.

This is rather hard for me because, though I was raised in the Catholic faith, I was once very involved in the Orthodox Church for a number of years. While my mother's side of the family is Catholic, my father's side is Orthodox, and I see no reason why personally I should make a distinction between them.

 

[truthseeker32]

If you would permit my two cents, for the past four years I have been struggling to figure out what the truth is. At first I went about it poorly by deciding that I wouldn't do anything but research until I figured it out. I eventually came to realize that sometimes a person needs to take a chance and get involved, even if they aren't fully convinced of something. A person needs a religious community to grow closer to Christ. Whether you decide to go to a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc. church I recommend just getting involved with whatever seems to fit best. That isn't to say you should get comfortable and stop looking, but find some soil in which to plant yourself so you can grow.

 

[Yoder777]

If you would permit my two cents, for the past four years I have been struggling to figure out what the truth is. At first I went about it poorly by deciding that I wouldn't do anything but research until I figured it out. I eventually came to realize that sometimes a person needs to take a chance and get involved, even if they aren't fully convinced of something. A person needs a religious community to grow closer to Christ. Whether you decide to go to a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc. church I recommend just getting involved with whatever seems to fit best. That isn't to say you should get comfortable and stop looking, but find some soil in which to plant yourself so you can grow.

I know for sure that my wife isn't comfortable with either the Catholic or Orthodox Church. I've considered joining a Protestant church as a compromise, but it would have to be liturgical and sacramental, with a real sense of history, tradition, and the mystical to it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I feel the most comfortable in the Catholic Church. I thought that having the deacon of the Orthodox church to which I once belonged calling me out of the blue to invite me to a men's breakfast was a sign from God to return to Orthodoxy, but perhaps it simply means that you shouldn't forget who your friends are, even if you've been led to another faith.

Incidently, I called him yesterday to ask when the next men's breakfast will be, and explained to him my predicament, and he saw no reason why I shouldn't attend church functions as a fellow Christian, even if I am led to the Catholic faith in which I was raised.

This is a prickly situation for me, because even though I don't believe that either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church is exclusively the one true church, and though I see no reason why there should be divisions between them, the official leaders of these churches disagree with me, and prefer that I choose one over the other.

This is rather hard for me because, though I was raised in the Catholic faith, I was once very involved in the Orthodox Church for a number of years. While my mother's side of the family is Catholic, my father's side is Orthodox, and I see no reason why personally I should make a distinction between them.

Concerning what it is that you wrote, I find that what you noted is something many others have experienced and gone through as well - consequently leading them to feel as if they are anomalies within their fellowships or the system they live in. One individual I know had a similar situation - as she was Orthodox (and Jewish) while her husband was Catholic - and consequently, they went to two churches: Orthodox (OCA jurisdiction) and Melkite Catholic (Eastern Catholic). It was a bit difficult for them on some levels but they managed to work through it and help each other grow in the knowledge/image of CHrist.


For more:

• A Jewish-Arab Mission? | The Groom's Family

For more clarity on her experiences, she worked with others in the Eastern Catholic world for a long time even while she was Orthodox before meeting her husband, as far as I can recall. As she noted best, in her words (for brief excerpt):

A couple of years ago I spent nine months in Western Ukraine, working at the Ukrainian Catholic University. Though an Orthodox Christian by choice (including the explicit choice not to become Roman Catholic, which was my other serious alternative), I worshipped regularly and enthusiastically with the University’s Byzantine Catholic community; I came to love those people and admire their piety, and bought into a fair chunk of their nationalist narrative. I also came to see their Eastern Catholic Church as they see it: as an ecumenical bridge between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, rejecting neither, and working and praying for the unity of the two. That is not a typically Orthodox position..... But here is why I came to think the way I do. The Ukrainian Church has always been wedged, geographically and spiritually, in the middle of the battle – over land, souls, and doctrinal purity – between Rome and Constantinople, and later Moscow. The Great Schism, from the Ukrainian perspective, was a fight between the big dogs in the neighborhood. Taking a side in this fight was a painful choice forced upon the Western Ukrainian community from the outside, by both Rome and the Orthodox world; not surprisingly, their bishops resisted it, staying in communion with both centers of Christianity as long as they could get away with it. When the alternatives have been defined by those outside one’s community in the course of their own conflict, one can take a stand if one must, but it is impossible to make a meaningful choice about one’s identity.
​

I've enjoyed keeping up with her since she's very passionate about helping others seek connection where many have said such isn't possible and doing as Psalm 133 and Ephesians 4:1-8 talk on with unity in the Gospel....


For more reference on her journey if wanting to investigate yourself:

• A Song of Praise | The Groom's Family
• Down with Easter | The Groom's Family
• Family and People | The Groom's Family
• What The Other Jews Think | The Groom's Family
• Blog is Back! And So Is Marriage | The Groom's Family
• How To Plan A Russian-Christian-Jewish Wedding | The Groom's Family ...
• Light Unto the Nations: A Frenchwoman Paints Hanukkah | The Groom's Family ...
• What Kind of Hebrew Catholic (Orthodox? Christian?) Are You? | The Grooms Family ...

She tripped me out once e when it came to her sharing on Ecumenism as Household Decoration and that she/her husband hadn't even planned this particular mix of Jewish-Catholic-Orthodox religious imagery…

​

I could definately relate, as I grew up in a similar household due to the myriad of experiences my family had (living with my mother, grand-parents and great-grandparents in the same household - with Catholic imagery placed alongside things you'd see in Asian culture/icons at the same and then having African/Hispanic cultural images or items in the same house since we were multi-cultural ). And as said before, when you feel like your heart is to honor others where they're at/find beauty in it, it can truly lead to feeling as if they or you are anomalies within the system they live in. I've had that myself when it came to one organization I employed with as a Behavioral Specialist/Youth Worker that I am involved with both Oriental Orthodoxy and Messianic Judaism....for they were perplexed with the way I dressed since the stereotype they may've had for black men (with dreadlocks) was that they'd not do such things/be knowledgeable on it. For some, it was hard to break it down for others since you had to literally give an entire reader's digest history for others to have a bridge they can connect with you on. In time, I could share more info on my multi-ethnic/multi-cultural background and where I was at - and it was amazing to see others in differing places who also had battles in regards to dual identity.

Ultimately, you're not alone.​

 

[Yoder777]

Concerning what it is that you wrote, I find that what you noted is something many others have experienced and gone through as well - consequently leading them to feel as if they are anomalies within their fellowships or the system they live in. One individual I know had a similar situation - as she was Orthodox (and Jewish) while her husband was Catholic - and consequently, they went to two churches: Orthodox (OCA jurisdiction) and Melkite Catholic (Eastern Catholic). It was a bit difficult for them on some levels but they managed to work through it and help each other grow in the knowledge/image of CHrist.

For more:

• A Jewish-Arab Mission? | The Groom's Family

What would you recommend for a Catholic or Orthodox Christian married to a Protestant?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What would you recommend for a Catholic or Orthodox Christian married to a Protestant?

I can only go from what has been told to me by my priest - but on the issue, as I've seen, what often makes the difference is whether you can love others where they are at ...and respect the fact that all are at a differing place in their journey toward the Lord. I've talked to other Orthodox and they've noted that others who came to appreciate Orthodoxy - if from a Convert background - burnt a lot of bridges with family and friends on the matter...and made it into a point of pride in either considering themselves as better in all respects - or acting as if the Lord wasn't working in other places their loved ones were at. And for those who had rocky marriages, what helped them was looking for ways to work together in their marriage as friends - not treating their spouses as projects..but instead treating them as friends.

You can have a conversation with a spouse, for example, who happens to be Methodist while the other is an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian when there's realization that the Lord is the judge and all men are made in His Image. You can work together when every conversation isn't about why the other should convert to Orthodoxy and instead you can simply enjoy everyday life discussions (i.e. raising kids, how to be involved in the community, politics, games/sports, romance/celebrating the friendship God has given the two of you, etc). You can share with one another the things you're learning in your walks with the Lord so long as you know you don't have to change the other person in order to find appreciation for what the Lord is doing in them - and it often seems easier to do this if you're already in the habit of working with/having friendships with others in differing faiths.

My priest actually had that - as his wife is more in line with things you'd see at HillSong Conferences (Beth Moore being one of her favorites) whereas he is very much in the Tradition of the Desert Fathers and Monasticism. And at times, he was frustrated with her lack of interest in what he liked (or understanding) - but he had to deal with where he found himself simultaneously looking down on her because her interests were not the same. WHen they learned to conversate (even if it meant agreeing to disagree agreeably) since there was NOTHING worth terminating their marriage or making them lose sight of Jesus as a couple, they did well She may not agree with all things in Orthodoxy or understand it (since her focus as a homeschool mom/neighborhood baby-sitter and one for practical application of maintaining households influences her to study differing things) - but she supports her husband in his calling...and at least has a heart to listen, just as he does for her.

Hope that helps, for whatever it's worth.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What would you recommend for a Catholic or Orthodox Christian married to a Protestant?

As shared elsewhere....

I think another person said it before that there has to be mutual understanding/appreciation between others in order for others to be interested in what you may have to offer - and if someone in a Coptic Orthodox Church wanted their Southern Baptist spouse to appreciate it (as an example), they would have to show many times of noting things they appreciate about Baptist rather than only speaking in derision of them. If speaking of things they appreciate, it'd be hoped the Baptist spouse would do the same - and if they were not interested in studying history or finding out where others are coming from, the Coptic Orthodox spouse would have to simply pray and not bring up those issues that may lead to friction - or find ways of connection apart from the religious. Like finding ways to be encouraging/supportative in things like home life, common ground, helping other process, communication, asking how to bless one another, etc.

It'd not be perfect - but it would give the impression that one is still in it to win it. Again, my priest told me on some of the experiences he had and how it made a difference never demanding for others to be where you're at - or failing to relate to them as a friend when you may not have religious views in common...lest people feel more so like they're a project for a program rather than a partner before the Lord.

And if interested, one resource I am aware of seemed to have some very good material/principles for marriages with religious differences which seemed very helpful. It's from one Orthodox ministry and it's specifically their Interfaith Marriage Web site () -which has a downloadable, readable brochure that can easily be reproduced and shared with adolescents and young adults which is entitled: Pastoral Guidelines for Intermarriage. There is also a considerable amount of useful information on the sidebar of this Website under the subsection, When Orthodox Marry Non-Christians. The information is available to educate, ameliorate and prevent as many future pastoral problems as possible that result when Orthodox marry non-Christians. Although your spouse is a believer, the differences between you can be vast enough in many ways as you've shared - and the principles shared by the aforementioned ministry do seem universal to religious differences.


Wishing ya the best

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This is clever:

On this side of eternity, we can grasp for absolute truth, but nothing is absolutely certain aside from meeting Jesus face to face in the world to come. .

Awesome picture - as I was actually speaking with someone on this exact issue yesterday when it comes to the issue of how problematic it can be if/when you're not aware that you don't know what you don't know.

Humility at all times to seek the Lord...

 

[Yoder777]

Wishing ya the best

Thank you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I know for sure that my wife isn't comfortable with either the Catholic or Orthodox Church. I've considered joining a Protestant church as a compromise, but it would have to be liturgical and sacramental, with a real sense of history, tradition, and the mystical to it.

The only thing that came to mind was Anglican - but then again, is there a willingness for the two of you to either go to 2 churches simultaneously..or is the goal set for you to attend the same church in order to have peace in the home?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the reforms made since Vatican II, in opening the faith to the modern world while preserving the essentials of ancient faith, have been generally good. While some have criticized the novus ordo mass, I think there are some really good contemporary Catholic liturgical songs. I also think that having a modernized liturgy is perhaps a more effective way of reaching the modern world, especially the unchurched. I see no reason why the Orthodox liturgy can't preserve its essential form while also adapting to the musical tradition of whatever culture in which it is practiced, including American culture. For example, why not have a Gospel music version of the divine liturgy? If not, why not?

There are so many Catholic saints and thinkers that, even as a devoutly Orthodox Christian, I admired, especially Francis of Assisi, Teilhard de Chardin, John Paul II, John XXIII and Padre Pio. I am also deeply moved by Catholic forms of meditation and prayer such as the rosary, the chaplet of divine mercy, and the Ignatian exercises. I also find Catholic religious art to better convey emotion and realism than Orthodox iconography.

The main problem I've had with the Catholic Church is that I don't believe in the authority of the papacy, but there are many Catholics today who disagree with the Vatican on important matters. Hans Kung, a Catholic priest who participated in Vatican II, says clearly that papal supremacy as exercised by the Vatican was not of the ancient faith of the apostles.

Basically, what happened to me is that my mother's side of the family is Catholic while my father's side is Orthodox. I was raised Catholic, but I converted to Orthodoxy in high school. I was one of those people who converted to Orthodoxy out of resentment against his former faith, as this was the height of the priest scandal. In my college years, I was a full blown Orthodox zealot, demanding that others recognize the exclusive truth of the Orthodox faith while failing to live up to the teachings of the fathers in my personal life. When I finished college, I drifted away from Orthodoxy due to some bad experiences I had with priests who were mentally unstable and who were overly zealous about their Orthodoxy to compensate for their own insecurities. I then attended church services at the Salvation Army for over a year, because I was impressed by their charitable work, but I made clear to the pastor from the beginning that I was making no commitment to the Salvation Army and that I recently had some bad experiences with clergymen, which he fully understood. I eventually left the Salvation Army because I honestly missed the Eucharist, which they do not practice. I then found this book at the library, which is a book about Catholic traditions from a Protestant perspective, and it helped to attract me to the Catholic faith in which I was raised:

Almost Catholic: An Appreciation of the History, Practice, and Mystery of Ancient Faith: Jon Sweeney: 9780787994709: Amazon.com: Books

I've been attending Catholic mass off and on for the past six months. I recently had my two year old daughter baptized in the Catholic Church. About a month or two ago, however, the deacon from the Orthodox church to which I once belonged and even altar served called me up and invited me to a spiritual breakfast. This gave me the incentive to give Eastern Orthodoxy a second chance, but I might honestly feel more comfortable in the Catholic faith, even though I have a profound appreciation for Orthodoxy.

Deep thoughts - but if I could pose a question...

Is there anything saying that someone who is Orthodox at heart/involved with it in their past cannot be involved in a differing church/tradition - regardless of the reason? Some, for example, had it where they sought to ensure their family stayed together due to how they were not at a point where they could understand (and thus appreciate) differing concepts taught in Ancient Christendom - and so they went to another church with their family. And let their family grow where they were at - yet they themselves still researched/studied and walked out their faith as an Orthodox individual where they were at since it was about lifestyle for them....and that opened the door for dialouge. THey also found ways of connecting outside of the church their family went to and had peace knowing that their lifestyle before the Lord was what he was concerned with.

 

[Yoder777]

If I were to guess which church is the one true church, I would say that it's the Catholic Church. If it were a false church, why would the Holy Spirit let it be the most influential church of all history and why would there be over a billion Catholics in the world today? Then again, I don't find it productive to insist that any church is the one true church. The Catholic Church has made many mistakes throughout history and committed many sins. Then again, that the Catholic Church has survived many scandals and tribulations is a testament to its resilience.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If I were to guess which church is the one true church, I would say that it's the Catholic Church. If it were a false church, why would the Holy Spirit let it be the most influential church of all history and why would there be over a billion Catholics in the world today? Then again, I don't find it productive to insist that any church is the one true church. The Catholic Church has made many mistakes throughout history and committed many sins. Then again, that the Catholic Church has survived many scandals and tribulations is a testament to its resilience.

Not really seeing a lot of logic, IMHO, in saying one doesn't believe one (Orthodoxy) is the true/historical church (as said earlier) or any ..only to say that it is perhaps the true one. For that'd seem to indicate one was already biased even when they may've said they didn't think such earlier. As it is, it can be specious in saying Catholicism is the most influential since what defines influence is something that hasn't been discussed - and numbers alone don't mean one has more influence in a good sense than others. Orthodoxy also has significant influence/numbers - and despite any issues it has had to deal with, they've also gone through and survived. THus, one wouldn't really be acting fair in acting as if there's no resilience in their camp.

Honestly, I wonder if perhaps the bitterness toward your father that you mentioned earlier is something to account for more of your implict leaning toward Catholicism than anything else since it was a conscious choice to be against him (and his Orthodox faith) due to relationship - and that can impact us even in subtle ways as we get older and say things that have ramifications we do not realize.

 

[Yoder777]

Not really seeing a lot of logic, IMHO, in saying one doesn't believe one (Orthodoxy) is the true/historical church (as said earlier) or any ..only to say that it is perhaps the true one. For that'd seem to indicate one was already biased even when they may've said they didn't think such earlier. As it is, it can be specious in saying Catholicism is the most influential since what defines influence is something that hasn't been discussed - and numbers alone don't mean one has more influence in a good sense than others. Orthodoxy also has significant influence/numbers - and despite any issues it has had to deal with, they've also gone through and survived. THus, one wouldn't really be acting fair in acting as if there's no resilience in their camp.

Honestly, I wonder if perhaps the bitterness toward your father that you mentioned earlier is something to account for more of your implict leaning toward Catholicism than anything else since it was a conscious choice to be against him (and his Orthodox faith) due to relationship - and that can impact us even in subtle ways as we get older and say things that have ramifications we do not realize.

My father converted to Roman Catholicism, perhaps partially out of resentment against his Orthodox upbringing. He had sort of a falling out with his family of origin. As I said, I don't believe that any church is the one true church. My point was that if the Roman Catholic Church was a false church, the Holy Spirit really dropped the ball on that one, allowing so many Christians throughout history to be led astray.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is demonic in the Koran then?

the claim that Christ is merely a man. about as satanic as it comes

For what reasons do you personally choose to be Eastern Orthodox rather than Protestant or Roman Catholic?

because it is pretty clear that Rome has added to the faith, and then they keep adding stuff because whatever they added before is never isolated in theology. you cannot claim the Pope is infallible, and then have Popes calling other historic Popes anathematized heretics.

 

[Yoder777]

the claim that Christ is merely a man. about as satanic as it comes

On that, I might agree.

because it is pretty clear that Rome has added to the faith, and then they keep adding stuff because whatever they added before is never isolated in theology. you cannot claim the Pope is infallible, and then have Popes calling other historic Popes anathematized heretics.

Though Catholic doctrine has developed over time, I wonder if the original seed was planted by Christ himself. While I disagree with papal infallibility, it is worth noting that he only claims infallibility when speaking ex cathedra.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Though Catholic doctrine has developed over time, I wonder if the original seed was planted by Christ himself. While I disagree with papal infallibility, it is worth noting that he only claims infallibility when speaking ex cathedra.

well, I think it was, but it is not as healthy a seed as it can be. so your best bet would be to stay Orthodox since the Orthodox has not deliniated from the faith. it's fine not to understand/like/whatever stuff that Orthodoxy teaches. there is still a ton I struggle with. but I know that it is my own fallenness that gets in the way. God will reveal to me as He knows I am able, and that is fine. even if it's Judgment Day that wakes me up.

 

[Yoder777]

well, I think it was, but it is not as healthy a seed as it can be. so your best bet would be to stay Orthodox since the Orthodox has not deliniated from the faith. it's fine not to understand/like/whatever stuff that Orthodoxy teaches. there is still a ton I struggle with. but I know that it is my own fallenness that gets in the way. God will reveal to me as He knows I am able, and that is fine. even if it's Judgment Day that wakes me up.

I was seventeen when I left the Catholic Church out of resentment against the priest scandal. I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy three or four months later. I am twenty-seven now. I am older, wiser, and have had more life experiences. I am over the resentments I once had with the Catholic Church, and I no longer have unrealistic expectations of the Orthodox Church being the perfect alternative.

There are many considerations I would have in whether to be Orthodox or Catholic, and one of them is in which faith I'd be the most comfortable raising my children. Right now, I think it would be the Catholic Church. I could list the reasons here, but I don't want to appear that I am proselytizing, because I am not. I respect the religious decisions that people make and I don't want to sway them in a given direction.