Hypothetical Christian World

[Davian]

<snip>
The amount of complaining and crying that goes on here staggers me. Like you or anyone else is so concerned about people suffering. How is that the ratio of Christians to atheists is so staggeringly unbalanced when it comes to those in third world countries who are taking care of the needy?

There far more Christians than atheists?

The creators of the Christian religion built into it a mechanism for collecting large amounts money (tithing) from large groups of people. "Atheists" is not a group, it is what they are not. You do have trouble with that word.

Also, is the aid by these Christians provide free and clear, or is there usually a catch to it, an ulterior motive? Preaching, conversion, future tithing from the recipients, etc?

 

[brightlights]

Rule the earth in God's place?
As God would rule it?

You mean, just like God? Not depending on him to do the ruling instead?

Don't you think that just a little contradicts the next sentence?

I don't.

 

[brightlights]

I'd expect to see no suffering in the world.

Why?

I'd expect to see evidence of design in the things God designed.

What would evidence of design be?

I'd expect God's existence to be as plain as the colour as the sky.

Some say that it is. I realize it's not for you. But if human beings have been exiled from the presence of God why would you expect his existence to be plain?

I'd expect there to be a single religion of only one denomination, not least because God would be able to say "Hello, I'm God. No, don't have a Great Schism, or a holy war, or a jihad, let me explain what I meant...".

God has spoken thusly yet schism is rampant. Why would you expect perfect harmony among human beings if each believed that they were a god?

The world would be a very different place, I think. I wouldn't imagine life would be confined to the surface of a single rock, either. I'd imagine the entire universe would be far more suited for life than this empty expanse that we see. For instance, I can imagine an infinite number of flat 'shelves', infinite in width and breadth, which are covered in life - plants, animals, humans, etc. Imagine the Earth's cover is unpeeled like an orange and laid flat, and then repeated infinitely in width and breadth; and then take the whole thing and repeat it vertically up and down, to create these many layers of life. That would be a far more compact form of life, and it would bespeak an artificial, rather than a natural, origin. And God being God, could probably devise an even more efficient way to create life.

Do you like planet earth?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

What would evidence of design be?

A biomechanically sound lumbar spine designed for walking upright, for starters.

Not sure if I would design a single tube for air and food intake, either.

 

[Loudmouth]

God could most certainly do that, if He was concerned about immediately amending every wrong that we humans perpetrate.

So you are saying that God is not concerned with people starving to death?

Why is it that a supposed universe with God in it is indistinguishable from a universe without God in it?

He was condemned because after raising people from the dead and causing the lame to walk and the blind to see, people still shouted: WHERES THE EVIDENCE! WHERES THE EVIDENCE!

Stories are not evidence.

If you sincerely have questions about whether or not God is really good, and whether or not He is real, just look at Jesus. He is all the evidence you need.

I am not talking about a character in a story. I am talking about the real world where people do suffer, where children are born with horrific diseases that cause them pain for their entire short time on Earth. I am talking about a Universe that is devoid of any evidence for a deity.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why?

Per the OP, there exists a deity who is merciful, who cares enough about our wellbeing to involve himself in the minutiae of the seasons and rains, and who has committed himself to wooing us back into a dependant relationship.

Such a being would not, in all his omniscience and omnipotence, stand idly by while a five-year-old girl is gang raped. If it did, it would violate the terms of the OP: it would not be merciful, and/or caring, and/or extant.

What would evidence of design be?

It's hard to give an exhaustive answer to such a general question. Biological systems that don't look jury-rigged together from other pieces would be a good place to start - human eyes wouldn't be upside down, the giraffe's laryngeal nerve wouldn't go all the down its neck only to go all the way back up. A designer would never create aquatic animals with lungs of all things. He'd also reuse designs, leading to a distribution of features that doesn't fall into a nested hierarchy - instead of putting fur on everything that has a placenta and on nothing that doesn't (give or take monotremes and things), he'd put fur on things that it made sense to put fur .

Some say that it is. I realize it's not for you. But if human beings have been exiled from the presence of God why would you expect his existence to be plain?

Yes. Per the OP, God has committed himself to wooing us back into a dependant relationship with him. The most obvious first step would be to demonstrate his own existence - if you want to woo someone who doesn't even know you exist, then onus is more or less on you to make the first move.

God has spoken thusly yet schism is rampant. Why would you expect perfect harmony among human beings if each believed that they were a god?

Since humans clearly don't believe that, your question is moot.

Do you like planet earth?

Yes, but I think it's a ridiculous place for an all-powerful being to decide to create life. God's decision to sit us on the cracked shell of a cooling rock has killed millions through earthquakes and tsunamis.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Not to overcome His power, but to spoil His creation. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. In the beginning everything God created was good. He can not do otherwise. One good thing He created was man and woman in His image with the ability to make choices. What we see in the world now is the result of the choices WE MAKE.

Maybe your parents raised you to blame others, or blame your genes, or nature, or God, or whatever else for your shortcomings and failings. I was raised to be accountable for my own actions. It is called responsibility and accountability. If I foul up, I am to blame, not someone else. If I do wrong, I must own up to it. If I complain about human suffering, and then turn a blind eye to it when I see it, I am a hypocrite.

And in a world without God, that would make perfect sense. But inaction makes one culpable, and if God exists, he is guilty of that more than anyone else. If I stand by while someone rapes and kills my daughter, I am - and this may be new information - I am a bad person. When God does it... he's just working in mysterious ways?

Please.

The amount of complaining and crying that goes on here staggers me. Like you or anyone else is so concerned about people suffering.

What a sick and wicked remark to make. Christian compassion, everyone!

How is that the ratio of Christians to atheists is so staggeringly unbalanced when it comes to those in third world countries who are taking care of the needy?

For the same reason that the ratio of Christians to atheists is so unbalanced when it comes to who's teaching that condoms are bad, that gays should be exterminated, and that soldiers' funerals should be picketed.

 

[Elioenai26]

I am not talking about a character in a story. I am talking about the real world where people do suffer, where children are born with horrific diseases that cause them pain for their entire short time on Earth. I am talking about a Universe that is devoid of any evidence for a deity.

Then there is your dilemma. You refer to Jesus as a mere character in a story. Too bad you see it this way.

 

[Loudmouth]

Then there is your dilemma. You refer to Jesus as a mere character in a story. Too bad you see it this way.

Why is it too bad?

If the only evidence you can cite for the existence of God is stories written by men then I would say that you have come up quite short where evidence is concerned.

 

[Elioenai26]

And in a world without God, that would make perfect sense. But inaction makes one culpable, and if God exists, he is guilty of that more than anyone else. If I stand by while someone rapes and kills my daughter, I am - and this may be new information - I am a bad person. When God does it... he's just working in mysterious ways?

Please.

I would not call Jesus' life, ministry, torture, death by crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension a life of "inaction".

I would call it the most fruitful, the most noble, the most Holy, the most moral, the most exemplary, the most loving, the most selfless, the most compassionate, the most active life that anyone in human history has ever lived.

 

[Elioenai26]

Why is it too bad?

It is too bad because He is what you have been asking for all along. Evidence of God.

If the only evidence you can cite for the existence of God is stories written by men then I would say that you have come up quite short where evidence is concerned.

My evidence is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God. Look into His life.

If everyone were to imitate the life of Christ, human suffering would be greatly diminished.

 

[Loudmouth]

I would say Parent A. Some would say parent B.

What is the point?

Would you stand idly by while your child was being run over by a car? If you had the power to prevent your child from being hit by a car, would you use that power? If you had the power to cure your child of a cancer so painful that the child screams in pain, would you do it?

If a parent had this power and didn't use it, would you say that they were a bad parent? Would you say that this parent is trying to woo their child into loving them by withholding these things?

 

[Loudmouth]

It is too bad because He is what you have been asking for all along. Evidence of God.

Stories are not evidence.

My evidence is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God. Look into His life.

Those are stories, not evidence.

If everyone were to imitate the life of Christ, human suffering would be greatly diminished.

If everyone were to imitate the life of Captain American, human suffering would be greatly diminished as well. That doesn't mean that Captain America is real.

 

[Loudmouth]

I would not call Jesus' life, ministry, torture, death by crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension a life of "inaction".

I would not call the actions of Paul Bunyan as inactive, either, but that doesn't make Paul Bunyan real.

I would call it the most fruitful, the most noble, the most Holy, the most moral, the most exemplary, the most loving, the most selfless, the most compassionate, the most active life that anyone in human history has ever lived.

And yet children die of painful diseases everyday while God does nothing.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I would not call Jesus' life, ministry, torture, death by crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension a life of "inaction".

I would.

Before Jesus: the girl gets gang raped.
After Jesus: the girl gets gang raped.

What, exactly, has changed?

I would call it the most fruitful, the most noble, the most Holy, the most moral, the most exemplary, the most loving, the most selfless, the most compassionate, the most active life that anyone in human history has ever lived.

Of course you would, but the fact remains that it did exactly nothing to alleviate the suffering of mankind.

"Ah", you might say, "but that wasn't the point of Jesus coming to Earth!" Maybe so, I'd retort, but that's the issue at hand. Wrangle it however you want, but you believe in an all-powerful being who does nothing while children are raped and murdered.

 

[Elioenai26]

Stories are not evidence.



Those are stories, not evidence.



If everyone were to imitate the life of Captain American, human suffering would be greatly diminished as well. That doesn't mean that Captain America is real.

Just imitate His life. Love your neighbor as yourself. Deny yourself and always place others before yourself. Always look for the best in people and love them and treat them the way you would want to be treated.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Just imitate His life. Love your neighbor as yourself. Deny yourself and always place others before yourself. Always look for the best in people and love them and treat them the way you would want to be treated.

These are generally good suggestions, but these ideas predate Christianity, and are in no way ground shaking in their pronouncement.

 

[Elioenai26]

I would.

Before Jesus: the girl gets gang raped.
After Jesus: the girl gets gang raped.

What, exactly, has changed?


Of course you would, but the fact remains that it did exactly nothing to alleviate the suffering of mankind.

"Ah", you might say, "but that wasn't the point of Jesus coming to Earth!" Maybe so, I'd retort, but that's the issue at hand. Wrangle it however you want, but you believe in an all-powerful being who does nothing while children are raped and murdered.

Your complaints are indirect evidence of your belief in God.

 

[Elioenai26]

These are generally good suggestions, but these ideas predate Christianity, and are in no way ground shaking in their pronouncement.

They should not be ground shaking. I do not think they are ground shaking at all.

They are the common duties of man. It is what men and women are supposed to do. Nothing extraordinary in this hypothetical world of brightlights' which is in question.

 

[Elioenai26]

I would not call the actions of Paul Bunyan as inactive, either, but that doesn't make Paul Bunyan real.



And yet children die of painful diseases everyday while God does nothing.

So you believe in objective moral values and duties then?

Is that a yes?