[Everyone's] favorite topic: Solipsism...

[Solitary Refinement]

I find it more likely that you are a figment of my imagination than that I am a figment of yours.

Why is it that solipsists don't imagine themselves as someone else's dreams. (Excluding those that ask whether God is a solipsist.)

I think, therefore I am. I know that I'm real. It's the reality of everyone else that is questionable.

 

[Gottservant]

If I am you, you already know I'm expecting you to wait, until that's not what you think.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I once attended a solipsist convention, but I was the only one who showed up.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I find it more likely that you are a figment of my imagination than that I am a figment of yours.

Why is it that solipsists don't imagine themselves as someone else's dreams. (Excluding those that ask whether God is a solipsist.)

Perhaps the answer is in the failure of the solipsist to understand other minds. We understand others' pain when we can correlate it with our own. The solipsist either has never realized that there is someone in there ("just nod if you can hear me") or perceives someone else's pain as her own. I'm not sure which is worse, but either way it is a failure.

(Am I talking to myself? Of course. Who else would I be talking to?)

 

[Solitary Refinement]

You have explained why you can believe in yourself and God, and why this feels like a dream world to you but why don't you believe we are real as well? If God is producing the dream world you live in, couldn't he have made it a communal dream world for all of us?

He could have...but then couldn't He have made a real world too? I don't know. I just don't think the communal dream thing is the case. It wouldn't really change much, anyway. Unless, of course, there was a world to wake up to. Or if our body's are being harvested as batteries by machines.

Or couldn't it be that you are in a dream, and that you are the only one in this dream, but that we are also you because we are each a different incarnation of the same being, as in this story?: The Egg

The Egg is an interesting concept. Thanks for the link. I'd have to wonder what might happen if this person would somehow obtain memories from a previous life if his previous life was in a later point in time. Could he change the future, which is his past? Ugh.

Maybe that's how you get a god to be stillborn.

 

[Solitary Refinement]

Not sarcastic. And if I was you can't judge me, I'm not real. Or I could have been telling the truth.

Seemed rather sarcastic, but anyway.

Sounds like something that scientists might have already looked into, maybe you should google it. It isn't that unthinkable that the mind could disassociate itself from the body and senses. The mind can do strange things.

Not sure what kind of keywords to use. I'm sure there's some alternate explanation out there. But that doesn't mean my original explanation is invalid. It could be that my mind is just doing strange things, or it might be that my mind is becoming aware that the world it's experiencing isn't genuine.

What sort of coincidences? The mind is built to look for patterns and sees them where there aren't any.

I'll give a few notable examples. Recently, I started doing a voice imitation for a certain character, and I was told that it was really accurate. Days after, I hear about a voice acting opportunity for that very character. What are the chances of that? Of course, I wasn't chosen. As I said before, I think God might be purposefully causing me disappointment.

On another occasion, I had the song "Just the Two of Us" stuck in my head. I scrolled down and saw a thread titled "Just the two of us." How does that happen? Pretty sure I didn't see it earlier, but perhaps my subconscious is picking up things I'm not aware of.

Then there's my truck, which had some kind of problem with the battery. It would occasionally not turn on. But every time this has happened, it's been when I was far from home. Two times in a row, it was even in the same exact location.

Maybe you'll learn that other people are real too.

It's possible, though unlikely.

But since you don't think your mind created this world, it isn't necessary to think that this world works like a dream.

Yes, but it may be that the same principles apply when it comes to people who don't exist. I can know that I'm dreaming. I'm a lucid dreamer. But I cannot make the characters in my dream admit they aren't real.

Well yeah, we could all be your alternative personalities. I haven't seen A Beautiful Mind.

It's a true story about a brilliant man who happened to have hallucinations. He created his best friend in college, who later had a daughter. And he thought he was a part of a secret government organization. He even left his baby in the bath tub alone because one of these people were supposedly watching it.

After he finally convinced himself that these things were not real, the characters continued to harass him. They would not give up the act, but they'd constantly try to make him believe in them.

Illusions do not admit they are illusions.

What does that mean?

I'm feeling about on your reply.

I guess it doesn't make any difference though, unless you stress over it. The world would be no different either way.

True. Imagine, though, if I were able to confirm that solipsism were true. Could I love a wife who is nothing but an empty shell? Could I feel proud of a child who is not, in reality, the carrier of my legacy? Perhaps it is better to remain in ignorance.

 

[I Eat Pie]

Hey, welcome to the site. Glad to have you.

Now how do I know that you are real and not just an illusion placed here by God to satisfy my leisure time with?

To be honest, a few years back, I thought the same thing, that I was the only real person and if everyone else was just an illusion, but I forgot about it. Now you reminded me of it . Idk... I think that if you think that you are the only real person, it can be positive and negative. Positive, as in believing that you are able to achieve far beyond what the rest of us illusions can achieve in life, but negative because it might make you feel superior to everyone, but everyone wants to be treated equally nice

 

[Solitary Refinement]

I have no problem with that. What however I do have a problem with is the idea that - while everyone else doesn´t exist - an anonymous poster in the interwebs is the only person that does exist.

If I'm right, I'm not just some anonymous poster on the interwebs, I'm THE anonymous poster on the interwebs. This isn't random selection, like I'm looking through the mass of people to see which I think is the only one who exists.

I have a mind. I can experience my own thoughts, feelings, etcetera. Because of this, I know that I exist. But I cannot experience the thoughts of anyone else. To believe that another exists is just an assumption.

If I may suggest an alternative view:
There exists a world outside us. However, all that is significant to us about this world is created in our minds. The way you perceive the world is your own making.
I have no problem at all with the idea that I (as the person you interact with at this moment) am your making, your creation, your invention. Vice versa, I consider you (i.e. the person I interact with when writing this post) a creation of my mind, as well.
All I can interact with is my inner image (notwithstanding the fact that there is something outside my mind). Everything that is not brought to me by my mind is irrelevant and insignificant to me. Who- or whatever [you] may "really" can not be of significance to me. My idea of [you] gives significance to your existence in my reality.
I see no reason to assume that this is any different vice versa.

I've heard of a similar idea before. I forget who proposed it. It's been too long since I've taken that philosophy class. But he said that each person is basically living on his own little island. Everything outside of us isn't real. If I "push" you, I'm merely experiencing the sensations of causing force on a body. At the same time, your experiences are coordinated with mine so that you feel yourself being pushed on.

Whatever the case, my world exists only in my head. The question is if there are others in the same universe who have the world in their heads too, or if I'm really just acting alone here.

If I'm alone, then everything is centered on how it affects me, for better or for worse. Doesn't make me more important. Well, beyond what being the only real human would make me. But each thing would exist only to have some sort of affect on me, just as a video game is meant to engage the player, not the pixilated characters in the game.

 

[Solitary Refinement]

Hey, welcome to the site. Glad to have you.

Now how do I know that you are real and not just an illusion placed here by God to satisfy my leisure time with?

To be honest, a few years back, I thought the same thing, that I was the only real person and if everyone else was just an illusion, but I forgot about it. Now you reminded me of it . Idk... I think that if you think that you are the only real person, it can be positive and negative. Positive, as in believing that you are able to achieve far beyond what the rest of us illusions can achieve in life, but negative because it might make you feel superior to everyone, but everyone wants to be treated equally nice

Actually, I don't think being the only one (besides God) to exist makes me more capable. One thing life has taught me is that I don't have control over my own actions. I can plan to do something, and want to do it, but it won't happen. I have a personality and character that was given to me, and I cannot change it.

Doesn't really make me feel superior either, since I suspect I'm something meant to be broken down, not something to be built into something great. I'm not a hero, conquering the forces of evil. I'm a guy with a low-paying, stressful job, no girlfriend, and persistent depression which could most likely be diagnosed as clinical.

But anyway. It's good to know there are other Solipsists out there. ...Wait.

 

[I Eat Pie]

Well think of this question. If a tree falls over and no one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?

You can always be a hero. The only shackles on man are the ones placed on by ones-self xD

Don't worry about the depression. It's all in your head. Find something you love and you'll snap out of it.

Oh and p.s, if you can't find a good job, make one

 

[Solitary Refinement]

Well think of this question. If a tree falls over and no one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?

Depends on what you mean by the word "sound." If you're talking about vibrations in the air, then it does make a sound. But if you're talking about the experience of sound, this can only exist in the mind after the previously mentioned vibrations enter the ear and are translated by the brain. If there is no one around to hear it, then this definition of "sound" couldn't exist by definition.

But if solipsism is true, the tree wouldn't exist in the first place.

You can always be a hero. The only shackles on man are the ones placed on by ones-self xD

I need to find the key to them shackles, then, because I've been trying to remove them in vain.

Don't worry about the depression. It's all in your head. Find something you love and you'll snap out of it.

Depression is a chemical problem. The same events that cause bliss in one person can do nothing for someone who is depressed. Doing things that I enjoy only provide temporary relief, if even that.

Oh and p.s, if you can't find a good job, make one

I ain't no business guru. I may have a better job later, though, if I can get more schooling done. But even if I get the degree, it could be difficult. I expect I'll get to that point and run into a major roadblock.

 

[I Eat Pie]

People get rich without degrees, but ok, if we need that peice of paper of qualification xD

Hop everything works out for you ._.

 

[quatona]

If I'm right, I'm not just some anonymous poster on the interwebs, I'm THE anonymous poster on the interwebs. This isn't random selection, like I'm looking through the mass of people to see which I think is the only one who exists.

So, for purposes of this discussion you are asking me to accept the premise that you exist and I don´t? That´s not a good basis for a conversation.
Here´s an idea: Let´s do it the other way round. I exist and you don´t. Just so you understand what you are asking.

I have a mind. I can experience my own thoughts, feelings, etcetera. Because of this, I know that I exist.

Well, how do you know they are your thoughts, feelings, etc.?
(I´ll tell you a secret: Those thoughts and feelings are actually mine. You don´t exist.)

But I cannot experience the thoughts of anyone else. To believe that another exists is just an assumption.

That the thoughts and feelings you experience are yours and that therefore a "you" exists isn´t any less of an assumption.
I´m not sure how you distinguish between reliable input and unreliable input. Seems a little arbitrary to me.

 

[Paradoxum]

Seemed rather sarcastic, but anyway.

My aim wasn't sarcasm. Perhaps more as a joke, or to see how you would react to word it in that way.

Not sure what kind of keywords to use. I'm sure there's some alternate explanation out there. But that doesn't mean my original explanation is invalid. It could be that my mind is just doing strange things, or it might be that my mind is becoming aware that the world it's experiencing isn't genuine.

Here is a starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)

Depersonalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Derealization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps the third applies to you most?

Alternative explanations don't prove that your first explanation was wrong, but it should case you reason to question your original belief. If it doesn't make you question your original belief, then one must wonder if you merely want to believe it because it makes you feel special. No insult intended.

I'll give a few notable examples. Recently, I started doing a voice imitation for a certain character, and I was told that it was really accurate. Days after, I hear about a voice acting opportunity for that very character. What are the chances of that? Of course, I wasn't chosen. As I said before, I think God might be purposefully causing me disappointment.

As you say, what are the chances of that. Well, the chances are probably low, but still high enough for it to happen. Such coincidence probably happen to people around the world everyday.

People notice possible patterns more than possible lack of patterns. Consider how many times you have thought about anything and never had anything in relation to that pop out at you. I mean, there are many more times when nothing 'amazing' happens, but this doesn't cause you to think there is no pattern, because humans aren't programmed to pick out a lack of patterns. There are many more lack-of-patterns in your life than patterns, but you only notice the patterns.

On another occasion, I had the song "Just the Two of Us" stuck in my head. I scrolled down and saw a thread titled "Just the two of us." How does that happen? Pretty sure I didn't see it earlier, but perhaps my subconscious is picking up things I'm not aware of.

This can be answer in a similar way to the above. Or, as you say, perhaps you saw it somewhere related before.

Then there's my truck, which had some kind of problem with the battery. It would occasionally not turn on. But every time this has happened, it's been when I was far from home. Two times in a row, it was even in the same exact location.

I suspect that knowledge of cars, coincidence and psychology would help explain this too.

Yes, but it may be that the same principles apply when it comes to people who don't exist. I can know that I'm dreaming. I'm a lucid dreamer. But I cannot make the characters in my dream admit they aren't real.

It may be, it may not be.

It's a true story about a brilliant man who happened to have hallucinations. He created his best friend in college, who later had a daughter. And he thought he was a part of a secret government organization. He even left his baby in the bath tub alone because one of these people were supposedly watching it.

After he finally convinced himself that these things were not real, the characters continued to harass him. They would not give up the act, but they'd constantly try to make him believe in them.

Illusions do not admit they are illusions.

That isn't necessarily true that. The idea that "illusions do not admit they are illusions" could itself be a lie about the world.

The false 'real' may not work by the rules of dreams or illusions within that world.

True. Imagine, though, if I were able to confirm that solipsism were true. Could I love a wife who is nothing but an empty shell? Could I feel proud of a child who is not, in reality, the carrier of my legacy? Perhaps it is better to remain in ignorance.

I doubt you can confirm it though. So I suggest you look into the psychology of all this.

 

[Solitary Refinement]

My aim wasn't sarcasm. Perhaps more as a joke, or to see how you would react to word it in that way.

I'm cool with some humor.

Here is a starting point:

[links removed from quote because I have only 16 posts]

Perhaps the third applies to you most?

Depersonalization and derealization sound almost right, but Wikipedia describes the experience as hazy, triggered by stress, and resulting in memory loss. My experience is of hyperawareness, seems to be randomly triggered, and I haven't lost any memories from it. The rest seems to be right on, though.

Maybe by "hazy" they're not referring to sight, though. The sense that feels weird to me during these times is my sense of touch.

Alternative explanations don't prove that your first explanation was wrong, but it should case you reason to question your original belief. If it doesn't make you question your original belief, then one must wonder if you merely want to believe it because it makes you feel special. No insult intended.

Nah. I don't feel special. I don't totally believe in solipsism.

As you say, what are the chances of that. Well, the chances are probably low, but still high enough for it to happen. Such coincidence probably happen to people around the world everyday.

People notice possible patterns more than possible lack of patterns. Consider how many times you have thought about anything and never had anything in relation to that pop out at you. I mean, there are many more times when nothing 'amazing' happens, but this doesn't cause you to think there is no pattern, because humans aren't programmed to pick out a lack of patterns. There are many more lack-of-patterns in your life than patterns, but you only notice the patterns.

Well, from the point of view of a solipsist, it makes sense that patterns would be outnumbered by lack-of-patterns. If there were more patterns than lack of patterns, then the world would be incoherent. It might be like in the Matrix, where deja-vu is a sign that something in the digital world was changed.

That isn't necessarily true that. The idea that "illusions do not admit they are illusions" could itself be a lie about the world.

The false 'real' may not work by the rules of dreams or illusions within that world.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but I'm afraid you've lost me.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm cool with some humor.

Depersonalization and derealization sound almost right, but Wikipedia describes the experience as hazy, triggered by stress, and resulting in memory loss. My experience is of hyperawareness, seems to be randomly triggered, and I haven't lost any memories from it. The rest seems to be right on, though.

Maybe by "hazy" they're not referring to sight, though. The sense that feels weird to me during these times is my sense of touch.

Well there might be more to it than what wiki says. I guess the point is just that psychologists understand that people have these types of experiences.

Nah. I don't feel special. I don't totally believe in solipsism.

Ah ok, I wasn't accusing you of anything, just putting it out there.

Well, from the point of view of a solipsist, it makes sense that patterns would be outnumbered by lack-of-patterns. If there were more patterns than lack of patterns, then the world would be incoherent. It might be like in the Matrix, where deja-vu is a sign that something in the digital world was changed.

It may be consistent with solipsism, my point was just that it is also consistent with the world being real too.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but I'm afraid you've lost me.

I messed up how I wrote it. It wasn't that important though.

 

[Received]

Now, that is not exactly what I think. I am open to the possibility that two things exist: myself and God. God would be the one producing the world in my head for me to live in. This seems likely to me because it does not seem like my mind is anywhere powerful enough to produce all of these illusions.

Sounds like you're conflating solipsism with Berkeleyan idealism. Solipsism doesn't even allow for the existence of God; and assuming that God exists in addition to your self, how do you reach this conclusion? Why go this extra step (from self to God)? And if you do go this extra step, why not another one?

 

[Solitary Refinement]

Sounds like you're conflating solipsism with Berkeleyan idealism. Solipsism doesn't even allow for the existence of God; and assuming that God exists in addition to your self, how do you reach this conclusion? Why go this extra step (from self to God)? And if you do go this extra step, why not another one?

It's really more of a blend between the two. What I take from solipsism is that out of all of this physical world, only the self exists. God is apart from the world. He can't be seen, felt, heard, smelled, or tasted. As Berkeleyan idealism states, the physical world is only an illusion, but it claims that other people exist too. It's like we're having a collective dream.

My view is that nothing I experience is real. However, I am not the one producing the experience.

I've actually explained this in the OP. I do not think that I am in control because I believe I would have created a better life for myself than what I have.

So you ask, if I can believe in God, why not anyone else? I've answered this to some degree in previous posts. But to keep from repeating myself, I'll say something new.

The notion that everything in the world is a production of the mind solves the mind-body problem. There is no need to explain the connection of body and mind if the body is a product of the mind. No other explanation makes sense to me. To say that the mind is the product of the body doesn't sit well with me. I just don't see how a physical object could ever produce something like a mind.

Some believe in an immaterial soul which works in harmony with the body, but that has problems too. There's no explanation for how one could affect the other. If we can trust science (and the dualism explanation would say we could), all our actions seem to be based on the body, with no extra input from in invisible soul. Science tells us that changes in chemicals and electric pulses in the brain cause changes in the mind. No unseen changes in the soul cause physical changes in the brain.

 

[Solitary Refinement]

So, for purposes of this discussion you are asking me to accept the premise that you exist and I don´t? That´s not a good basis for a conversation.
Here´s an idea: Let´s do it the other way round. I exist and you don´t. Just so you understand what you are asking.

You assume my premise and I accept yours. You have to be willing to bend to put yourself in the position of creating a thoughtful counterargument. That's how intelligent debates work. (I say "intelligent" because a lot of people are unable or unwilling to understand the views of others.)

Well, how do you know they are your thoughts, feelings, etc.?
(I´ll tell you a secret: Those thoughts and feelings are actually mine. You don´t exist.)

That the thoughts and feelings you experience are yours and that therefore a "you" exists isn´t any less of an assumption.
I´m not sure how you distinguish between reliable input and unreliable input. Seems a little arbitrary to me.

If I have thoughts and feelings, then I exist. They cannot belong to someone else because they are the essence of what makes the self what it is. If someone said that I have your thoughts and you have mine, that'd be a statement devoid of any meaning. It would be like saying my left sock is on my right foot, or that a cloud is floating upside down, or that North is really South.

 

[quatona]

You assume my premise and I accept yours. You have to be willing to bend to put yourself in the position of creating a thoughtful counterargument. That's how intelligent debates work.

Well, your premise is that I don´t exist. I don´t know how to deal with this situation. I don´t know how non-existent persons behave.

(I say "intelligent" because a lot of people are unable or unwilling to understand the views of others.)

So there are people?

If I have thoughts and feelings, then I exist. They cannot belong to someone else because they are the essence of what makes the self what it is.

Thanks for giving your definition!

If someone said that I have your thoughts and you have mine, that'd be a statement devoid of any meaning. It would be like saying my left sock is on my right foot, or that a cloud is floating upside down, or that North is really South.

So you are considering my thoughts and feelings being mine, and consequently you consider me existent?