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Who Wants to Live Forever?

Handmaid for Jesus

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The basic question is this: do you want to live forever and if so, why? Make an effort to defend the position of immortality as something we as humans desire and/or should desire. Ethics are of particular import here, not to mention aesthetics, metaphysics and epistemology to a certain extent.

As a Christian, I look forward to living forever. Why? Because the promise that is presented in scripture of infinite love peace and joy and health is something I desire. I enjoy life. For me, the ethics and asthetics are contained also in scripture. Metaphysically, according to scripture, we will be changed, and our mortal bodies will be changed into immortal ones. So, I am very happily looking forward to living forever. And I will be living with my Lord Jesus and my Father in Heaven. My proof and documentation is the Holy Bible.
 
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muichimotsu

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As a Christian, I look forward to living forever. Why? Because the promise that is presented in scripture of infinite love peace and joy and health is something I desire. I enjoy life. For me, the ethics and asthetics are contained also in scripture. Metaphysically, according to scripture, we will be changed, and our mortal bodies will be changed into immortal ones. So, I am very happily looking forward to living forever. And I will be living with my Lord Jesus and my Father in Heaven. My proof and documentation is the Holy Bible.

So because you believe in a book whose veracity you've presented no evidence for, you're willing to accept something that you're just parroting from that text instead of understanding philosophically?

Seems like you missed the bus when it comes to making an effective argument, especially with me and my "ilk". Infinity, immortality, perfection, these are all abstractions and useless ones at that.

I like peace, joy and health, I enjoy life as well. But these are not reasons for me to leap to a conclusion that we should aspire towards living forever
 
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Dave Ellis

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Sign me up for living forever, I don't get how people would choose otherwise.

Just think of all the changes and advances that human civilization has seen over the last 500 years, and think where we'll be 500 in the future... or 2,000, or 10,000 years.... It would be a fascinating and incredible ride. It would be an unbelievable experience to be able to witness advances we can't even comprehend in the present day.

There's new things being discovered all the time, and that's going to continue for as long as we are around. I couldn't see myself ever getting bored.
 
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muichimotsu

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Sign me up for living forever, I don't get how people would choose otherwise.

Just think of all the changes and advances that human civilization has seen over the last 500 years, and think where we'll be 500 in the future... or 2,000, or 10,000 years.... It would be a fascinating and incredible ride. It would be an unbelievable experience to be able to witness advances we can't even comprehend in the present day.

There's new things being discovered all the time, and that's going to continue for as long as we are around. I couldn't see myself ever getting bored.

Again this boils down to time, which is a fundamentally limited thing. No matter how long you live, if you don't have a cut off point, the prospect of living becomes boring, if not hollow and lacking in purpose. If you were the only immortal yourself, there is always the tragedy of seeing everyone around you die, while you remain trapped in a proverbial time warp.

Boredom isn't strictly the only issue. There is also a problem of dehumanization, you feel less than complete when you cannot die. There is no challenge, nothing to aspire to, no memories to leave behind, no significance to an action you can postpone indefinitely.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Again this boils down to time, which is a fundamentally limited thing. No matter how long you live, if you don't have a cut off point, the prospect of living becomes boring, if not hollow and lacking in purpose. If you were the only immortal yourself, there is always the tragedy of seeing everyone around you die, while you remain trapped in a proverbial time warp.

Well, eventually the universe will likely come to an end, so it's impossible to outlive that.

However, while I may see everyone around me die, I'll also have the ability to meet my great-great-great grandson. So, there are pluses and minuses. Realistically, I've already seen my grandparents die, as well as most of my great aunts. And, as life is right now, if I live a long healthy life I'm very likely going to see my parents and numerous friends go as well. So, living an eternal life, or a finite life is not going to avoid that situation, unless I happen to die young myself, which I obviously want to avoid.

I believe we give purpose to our own lives. I don't see why an infinite life has to lack purpose... There are so many innovations going on that it's almost impossible for someone to keep up with one particular field of study, much less everything there is to know about the universe. In short, infinite time, is not enough time for one person to learn all there is to know.

As far as hobbies or whatnot to keep myself interested, there's a huge variety of things to do, and if you get bored with something, I imagine it'll seem pretty fresh again after taking a 500 year break from it. In fact, you'd probably have to relearn how to do it.

Boredom isn't strictly the only issue. There is also a problem of dehumanization, you feel less than complete when you cannot die. There is no challenge, nothing to aspire to, no memories to leave behind, no significance to an action you can postpone indefinitely.

The greatest tragedy I think there is in life, is all the things that we want to do that we will never get to do. Nursing homes are full of people who never had a chance to experience all the things they wanted to in life. I find that dehumanizing and tragic.

There's plenty of challenge and plenty of aspirations. If a man who lived in Ancient Egypt were still alive today, he'd still look in awe along with the rest of us about all the incredible new discoveries we have made over the last 20 years. He'd still regard computers and the internet as unbelievable inventions, he'd still be amazed we actually sent a guy to the moon.... and I'd argue given all the rest of the stuff he'd seen in his life, he'd be able to appreciate the context of how amazing those advances really were.

I don't want to leave memories behind, I want to keep creating them.
 
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muichimotsu

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Well, eventually the universe will likely come to an end, so it's impossible to outlive that.

That's the obvious problem

However, while I may see everyone around me die, I'll also have the ability to meet my great-great-great grandson. So, there are pluses and minuses. Realistically, I've already seen my grandparents die, as well as most of my great aunts. And, as life is right now, if I live a long healthy life I'm very likely going to see my parents and numerous friends go as well. So, living an eternal life, or a finite life is not going to avoid that situation, unless I happen to die young myself, which I obviously want to avoid.

Time paradox aside. Seeing death around you while you never experience it for a prolonged, infinite period of time can numb you to its severity and seriousness, even if you also do see it as tragic on a personal experiential level for a time.

I believe we give purpose to our own lives. I don't see why an infinite life has to lack purpose... There are so many innovations going on that it's almost impossible for someone to keep up with one particular field of study, much less everything there is to know about the universe. In short, infinite time, is not enough time for one person to learn all there is to know.

It lacks true purpose in that you put in the effort while knowing that there is the possibility of failure. If you can never fail, there isn't enjoyment in life, in the successes you have amongst the failure. There's a scientific philosophical argument that holds water here in that perfection, immortality a form of that, is a sign of hopelessness to science, since there is no progress for that area, a significant one to humanity. We are a group as much as we are individuals, which is why living forever can arguably create egotism in that you don't need anyone's help. Without death, we cannot rely on others

As far as hobbies or whatnot to keep myself interested, there's a huge variety of things to do, and if you get bored with something, I imagine it'll seem pretty fresh again after taking a 500 year break from it. In fact, you'd probably have to relearn how to do it.
Regardless, there is the isolation argument: you would be the only one to do this in this scenario. Even if everyone was immortal, there would be little true enjoyment in the perspective where life is fleeting and thus appreciated all the more because of its transience. I'm reminded of the saying "Familiarity breeds contempt"

The greatest tragedy I think there is in life, is all the things that we want to do that we will never get to do. Nursing homes are full of people who never had a chance to experience all the things they wanted to in life. I find that dehumanizing and tragic.

There's plenty of challenge and plenty of aspirations. If a man who lived in Ancient Egypt were still alive today, he'd still look in awe along with the rest of us about all the incredible new discoveries we have made over the last 20 years. He'd still regard computers and the internet as unbelievable inventions, he'd still be amazed we actually sent a guy to the moon.... and I'd argue given all the rest of the stuff he'd seen in his life, he'd be able to appreciate the context of how amazing those advances really were.

I don't want to leave memories behind, I want to keep creating them.

Time is our enemy and our friend, a double edged sword in that it motivates us and limits us. This shouldn't be something we utterly oppose, but something we accept as part of nature. Immortality is arguably unnatural, and the jellyfish that is biologically so is a vast exception, since it has to go through life stages to attain its immortality.

The true worth of wonder is that it is ultimately temporary and we must find new things to amaze us. If nothing else, immortality would create a chaotic existence in that we'd always be scrambling to find something else to amuse us after we waste some determinate amount of time mastering one skill. Eventually you'd go insane.

Memories are by their nature something we leave behind, why try to change that?
 
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Dave Ellis

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Time paradox aside. Seeing death around you while you never experience it for a prolonged, infinite period of time can numb you to its severity and seriousness, even if you also do see it as tragic on a personal experiential level for a time.

Well, to be honest I already am very good at dealing with death. I've had family members die of old age (some unexpectedly) and friends my own age die. A guy I used to play road hockey with as a teenager dropped dead of a heart defect he never knew he had at the age of 25 a number of years ago. It's a shock when it happens of course, but I've always been very good at dealing with things like that and moving on. While that person may be dead, I'm still alive... and I'm sure the dead person wouldn't want me wasting part of my own life mourning them. Likewise, when I eventually die, I don't want people standing around mourning me. They have their own lives to live and experience.

It lacks true purpose in that you put in the effort while knowing that there is the possibility of failure. If you can never fail, there isn't enjoyment in life, in the successes you have amongst the failure. There's a scientific philosophical argument that holds water here in that perfection, immortality a form of that, is a sign of hopelessness to science, since there is no progress for that area, a significant one to humanity. We are a group as much as we are individuals, which is why living forever can arguably create egotism in that you don't need anyone's help. Without death, we cannot rely on others

To quote the Mythbusters: Failure is always an option. It doesn't matter if you live until the end of time, you're still going to make mistakes. In fact, at some point you'd set the record for most mistakes ever made by a human being.

And I reject your idea that immortality will make helping each other un-needed. A great deal of joy in life comes from social activities... how much fun would it be to play a game of baseball or poker by yourself? Most things we do require other people, and we are by nature a social species. I see no reason why you'd even think an immoral person would eventually be drawn to the life of a hermit.

Regardless, there is the isolation argument: you would be the only one to do this in this scenario. Even if everyone was immortal, there would be little true enjoyment in the perspective where life is fleeting and thus appreciated all the more because of its transience. I'm reminded of the saying "Familiarity breeds contempt"

And as I said, familiarity with everything will not ever exist, as new things are being discovered every day at a pace that is impossible for one person to keep up with.

Time is our enemy and our friend, a double edged sword in that it motivates us and limits us. This shouldn't be something we utterly oppose, but something we accept as part of nature. Immortality is arguably unnatural, and the jellyfish that is biologically so is a vast exception, since it has to go through life stages to attain its immortality.

Sure immortality is unnatural, but then again so is this computer, and the pizza I had for dinner. Unnatural does not mean bad... in fact in many cases it can be a welcome improvement.

The true worth of wonder is that it is ultimately temporary and we must find new things to amaze us. If nothing else, immortality would create a chaotic existence in that we'd always be scrambling to find something else to amuse us after we waste some determinate amount of time mastering one skill. Eventually you'd go insane.

Memories are by their nature something we leave behind, why try to change that?

In a world where knowledge was static, and we never advanced, you are correct, an immortal person would one day learn everything. However, that is not the world we live in. Again, our knowledge as a species is not only growing, but it's continuing to grow at an ever increasing pace. This process will likely never end, and will provide you with new information, new knowledge and new things to do for an eternity. There are 400 Billion Galaxies in the observable universe, and each one contains billions of stars. There is no way we're going to run out of new things to explore and learn about before the universe itself ends.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I was at one time interested in becoming cryonically suspended (that is, frozen in liquid nitrogen) at death in the hopes of being reanimated by a future technology, all for the purpose of extending my lifespan.

I was involved at that time with a group of transhumanists that called themselves Extropians. But even though they had dreams of living for millions of years (possibly uploaded as a computer intelligence), even they did not say that they wanted to live forever. Rather, they said that they wanted an indefinite lifespan. IOWs, they wanted to be able to choose the time of their death, and didn't want to have unwanted, irreversible death.

That position makes good sense to me. Eternal life doesn't sound so appealing, but choosing how long one lives does.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Living in the Light

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Spirit is eternal; the physical changes to other physical matter. Why not look forward to the eternal Spirit life? There are myriads of mysteries in the universe AND beyond that beckons to me. What lies beyond the finite universe? More will be revealed.....
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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So because you believe in a book whose veracity you've presented no evidence for, you're willing to accept something that you're just parroting from that text instead of understanding philosophically?

Seems like you missed the bus when it comes to making an effective argument, especially with me and my "ilk". Infinity, immortality, perfection, these are all abstractions and useless ones at that.

I like peace, joy and health, I enjoy life as well. But these are not reasons for me to leap to a conclusion that we should aspire towards living forever

I just answered YOUR question friend. I cannot help if you don't like my answer.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Max S Cherry

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I've given it thought, which means I have acknowledged a universe where it could exist, but this in no way means I am required to accept it as desirable. A world where pretty much any immortality exists would be a hellish existence, if only because death is as much a necessary part of existence as life is and to imbalance that is both impractical and inefficient. I'd prefer a universe where immortality is bestowed rather than innate, which I believe is a Seventh Day Adventist position, among a few other Christian denominations.

I do not know which version of immortality you would like to discuss. Without knowing what you are arguing against, it is difficult to argue for it. It stills seems as though you want to discuss immortality in terms of our mortal world and existence. Death is as much a necessary part of existence as life only because that is how we have always known it. Our experience means nothing to the hypothetical discussion, because we are supposing an extremely different existence. I do not see how you can hope to show an impracticality or inefficiency in immortality if you lose the relations to "the way things are" and address "the way things would be if." Your argument against any immortality still seems based in your understanding of the here, now, and mortality.

If we can build an immortality to discuss, we can try it. I would suggest some of the following. First, there are no great value differences in people in my mind, so if one is immortal, I say all humans are immortal: universality. Second, I say that in the discussion we should present immortality as having always existed, so we do not have to try to explain its coming to be. Third, concerns of death (as far as it applies to humans dying) are over since there would never have been a human death. Maybe there are other concerns to build into the discussion. Any ideas or problems with the ones I suggest?
 
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Ripheus27

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Until we get a representative sample of immortals to scientifically study, isn't there something of the armchair-psychiatrist to our debates about the emotional laws immortals would be subject to? The closest comparison at hand would be the set of senior citizens: how insipid do they on average find continued life to be? (Maybe there's a survey out there related to precisely this question, but I'm not acquainted with it.)

Other than that, although I can easily imagine us having subjective reasons for why we ourselves would or would not find eternity insipid, to extrapolate from a private perspective to a principle of human psychology would be something of a hasty generalization...
 
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Eudaimonist

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Can you explain "Reverencing the exalted spirit of man?"

Yes, certainly. Thanks for asking.

I'm not using the word "spirit" to refer to something eternal about mankind, such as a "soul", by which I mean an escape pod of personality that survives after death.

Rather, I'm refering to a type of motivation, and an exalted spirit is a motivation towards that which exalts us as individuals. If you think of what Joseph Campbell meant by "following your bliss", assuming that leads towards personal growth and accomplishments in life, then that's close to what I mean.

As for reverence, I mean that in the sense close to that of dulia or hyperdulia, but definitely not latria.

Veneration, known as dulia in classical Catholic theology, is the honor due to the excellence of a created person. This refers to the excellence exhibited by the created being who likewise deserves recognition and honor. We see a general example of veneration in events like the awarding of academic awards for excellence in school, or the awarding of the Olympic medals for excellence in sports.

Veneration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No matter how excellent the human being, that is always just a human being. I'm completely opposed to the worship of leaders found for instance in some communist nations, which strikes me as closer to latria.

So, by reverence, I mean something short of worship. It's closer to veneration.

BTW, I have to give credit to Jane the Bane for the choice of words. She had described my views with that phrase. I thought that it was particularly apt, so I had put it next to my avatar.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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AlexBP

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As a Christian, I look forward to living forever. Why? Because the promise that is presented in scripture of infinite love peace and joy and health is something I desire. I enjoy life. For me, the ethics and asthetics are contained also in scripture. Metaphysically, according to scripture, we will be changed, and our mortal bodies will be changed into immortal ones. So, I am very happily looking forward to living forever. And I will be living with my Lord Jesus and my Father in Heaven. My proof and documentation is the Holy Bible.
Yes. I had a lengthy post typed out, which essentially said the same thing. Then my internet connection went down and the post got lost. But Handmaid for Jesus has said what I desired to say, and said it more succinctly.
 
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muichimotsu

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Well, to be honest I already am very good at dealing with death. I've had family members die of old age (some unexpectedly) and friends my own age die. A guy I used to play road hockey with as a teenager dropped dead of a heart defect he never knew he had at the age of 25 a number of years ago. It's a shock when it happens of course, but I've always been very good at dealing with things like that and moving on. While that person may be dead, I'm still alive... and I'm sure the dead person wouldn't want me wasting part of my own life mourning them. Likewise, when I eventually die, I don't want people standing around mourning me. They have their own lives to live and experience.
Mourning is a natural part of life as much as death is. It isn't a waste if it is done in moderation. You treat it as if life should purely be about efficiency, which is mechanical and artificial feeling. Life should be organic in that we experience death and realize that while life is fleeting, it should not be taken for granted. If it's about your personal feelings on death, then make your funeral different, like the Louisiana ones where there's a freaking parade almost. But you can't use mourning as a basic human practice related to death as an argument for why immortality is superior, since that reduces humanity to just living and no sense of change, no loss, no give and take.



To quote the Mythbusters: Failure is always an option. It doesn't matter if you live until the end of time, you're still going to make mistakes. In fact, at some point you'd set the record for most mistakes ever made by a human being.

It shouldn't be about a competition, it should be about seeking knowledge to benefit others and oneself.

And I reject your idea that immortality will make helping each other un-needed. A great deal of joy in life comes from social activities... how much fun would it be to play a game of baseball or poker by yourself? Most things we do require other people, and we are by nature a social species. I see no reason why you'd even think an immoral person would eventually be drawn to the life of a hermit.

If it is an individual immortal, the likelihood of being a hermit increases. But even a group of immortal individuals are not by necessity going to remain social beings forever. Even if there isn't any physical degeneration, we have to consider the psychological aspects of such a prolonged amount of social interaction with no sense of the significance of life in its transience. If I just experience something in perfection forever, I cease to truly appreciate it.


And as I said, familiarity with everything will not ever exist, as new things are being discovered every day at a pace that is impossible for one person to keep up with.

This is a matter of time, though, which still could be comparatively measured, if not on a much larger scale. Eventually the possibilities would dwindle down, even if it took ten thousand or so years.



Sure immortality is unnatural, but then again so is this computer, and the pizza I had for dinner. Unnatural does not mean bad... in fact in many cases it can be a welcome improvement.

Unnatural and artificial are markedly different, however. Unnatural is something going against the natural order of things, such as someone trying to create a disembodied existence. Immortality is similar in that it is almost a necessity that things die. The population control consideration has to be brought up too. We have a cap as to how many people can live on this planet and even if food and drink weren't options, there is always the possibility of peoples' baser natures coming into play.


In a world where knowledge was static, and we never advanced, you are correct, an immortal person would one day learn everything. However, that is not the world we live in. Again, our knowledge as a species is not only growing, but it's continuing to grow at an ever increasing pace. This process will likely never end, and will provide you with new information, new knowledge and new things to do for an eternity. There are 400 Billion Galaxies in the observable universe, and each one contains billions of stars. There is no way we're going to run out of new things to explore and learn about before the universe itself ends
If you have no seeming limitations at all, such as no need for food or water, even sleep perhaps, then immortality would become the worse kind of existence, since you would have no sense of time's limitations, since there would be nothing holding you back. And even if there was, we project a huge amount of time that overrides any of the hindrances of food/water/sleep, so eventually there would be a sense of apathy, in that you have no real motivation, since you can put something off indefinitely.

Assuming there is a remote cutoff point, then immortality is merely delaying the inevitable, since immortality is not necessarily the same as indestructibility. If heaven or some such afterlife is a factor, then that becomes a living hell, does it not? It's one thing to propose a secular immortality, which by its nature would have a limitation of billions of years assuming this solar system outlives its usefulness. And even the universe itself cannot continue forever, so there is a cut off point regardless. But my critique is especially directed towards supernatural immortality, where there is no time frame
 
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muichimotsu

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Yes. I had a lengthy post typed out, which essentially said the same thing. Then my internet connection went down and the post got lost. But Handmaid for Jesus has said what I desired to say, and said it more succinctly.

Yet the objection remains: why should I take your holy book seriously at all, especially for evidence about claims that supposedly have proof everyone could agree on?
 
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muichimotsu

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I was at one time interested in becoming cryonically suspended (that is, frozen in liquid nitrogen) at death in the hopes of being reanimated by a future technology, all for the purpose of extending my lifespan.

I was involved at that time with a group of transhumanists that called themselves Extropians. But even though they had dreams of living for millions of years (possibly uploaded as a computer intelligence), even they did not say that they wanted to live forever. Rather, they said that they wanted an indefinite lifespan. IOWs, they wanted to be able to choose the time of their death, and didn't want to have unwanted, irreversible death.

That position makes good sense to me. Eternal life doesn't sound so appealing, but choosing how long one lives does.


eudaimonia,

Mark



It creates an objection that we gain too much control over our lives, to the same extent people have problems with genetic engineering, which is understandable. Do we want to become virtual gods when being human suffices?
 
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