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Mat 28:1 teaches Shabbat Resurrection
- Thread starter Daniel Gregg
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Are those your peeps, Woffed? Are you part of GNMC?
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WOFFED
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Just came across it while googling a few hours ago. Had no previous knowledge of GNMC or Pastor Chet(Messianic Christian). I just called a few minutes ago and left a message for Chet. The earthquake associated with the resurrection possibly happened in conjunction with Yeshua's resurrection (?sometime between 3pm-5:59pm?)."Peeps" as slang ( not to be confused with the marshmallow confection) dates back to at least the early 1990s. Some suggest it was used a decade earlier, referring to parents. But it's not clear how common that usage was.
My question to Pastor Chet is what his thinking is as to why Yeshua HaMashiach waited until the next morning to first reveal himself to his closest followers. Will post his thoughts on this hoping he will call me. I've always wondered what became of those other saints that were resurrected? Like did they also ascend on the same day that Yeshua ascended to His Father. So, if time permits I'll ask him if he has any opinion.
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God know every detail, but God never said 72 hours. Three days and three nights is not necessarily 72 hours so to make that assumption goes beyond what scripture says.
My point is fairly simple. God reveals what He reveals in great purpose and detail. Going beyond what scripture says is going beyond what God revealed to us.
Just to show some alternate thought. Days are counted as night and then day, but this says day then night. In otherwords, it is not a typical counting of days, so can not be taken as a literal 72 hours. It means Yeshua dies during the day. One day would be whatever was left of the day when He died, and then the night follows. The night beginning at sunset is actually the beginning of the second day. Obviously, in the count of days, the first day is not 24 hours.
But, I don't quibble with what God said. While God knows each hair on our heads, which is of course highly detailed, to stay within scripture, we can not go beyond what God has said. And I assume there is good reason for this. Maybe it is because we can get so much into analyzing detail, we miss Gods reason, or we can know that sometimes God does not reveal every detail to us and simply accept that.
This is similar to people who say a Kosher diet is a healthy diet and that is the reason for the food restrictions. God never said that, so it goes beyond what God revealed to us. Is a Kosher diet a healthy diet? Most Jewish people will tell you no, Kosher does not mean healthy. It is not ours to know exactly why. God does indicate that some laws serve as a way of separating and functionally, it does work that way. But, God does not tell us the purpose.
72 hours is only an assumption.
Just as the 4 days are an assumption. Scripture does not make that relationship.
Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, just as prophesied. The narrative contains much more then that, but Yeshua is then rejected as the Messiah very quickly. That is what we can know. (By the way, the fact that Jesus rides in on a donkey eliminates His entry being on the Sabbath.)
And finally, the majority of Messianic Jews believe Yeshua was resurrected on the day of the First Fruits wave offering which is the same day when the count to 50 begins.
My point is fairly simple. God reveals what He reveals in great purpose and detail. Going beyond what scripture says is going beyond what God revealed to us.
Just to show some alternate thought. Days are counted as night and then day, but this says day then night. In otherwords, it is not a typical counting of days, so can not be taken as a literal 72 hours. It means Yeshua dies during the day. One day would be whatever was left of the day when He died, and then the night follows. The night beginning at sunset is actually the beginning of the second day. Obviously, in the count of days, the first day is not 24 hours.
But, I don't quibble with what God said. While God knows each hair on our heads, which is of course highly detailed, to stay within scripture, we can not go beyond what God has said. And I assume there is good reason for this. Maybe it is because we can get so much into analyzing detail, we miss Gods reason, or we can know that sometimes God does not reveal every detail to us and simply accept that.
This is similar to people who say a Kosher diet is a healthy diet and that is the reason for the food restrictions. God never said that, so it goes beyond what God revealed to us. Is a Kosher diet a healthy diet? Most Jewish people will tell you no, Kosher does not mean healthy. It is not ours to know exactly why. God does indicate that some laws serve as a way of separating and functionally, it does work that way. But, God does not tell us the purpose.
72 hours is only an assumption.
Just as the 4 days are an assumption. Scripture does not make that relationship.
Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, just as prophesied. The narrative contains much more then that, but Yeshua is then rejected as the Messiah very quickly. That is what we can know. (By the way, the fact that Jesus rides in on a donkey eliminates His entry being on the Sabbath.)
And finally, the majority of Messianic Jews believe Yeshua was resurrected on the day of the First Fruits wave offering which is the same day when the count to 50 begins.
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WOFFED
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Not sure what you're implying ... is that your way of saying you don't believe Yeshua was resurrected on the Seventh Day just a few hours before sundown?
Please tell us what specifically you find fault with in their Statement of Faith. I haven't checked it yet, but will do so now. I'll run your concerns past him and hopefully he is willing to discuss it ... as I would imagine there may be others besides you that question some parts of their SoF.
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WOFFED
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My thoughts also; however, one wonders why Yeshua made a point of being more specific than the Third Day, "so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth. (CJB)"
Good Point! I will run your comment (word for word) past Pastor Chet if time permits ... assuming he returns my call.
I appreciate your concerns as they are also my concerns.
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Indeed, getting this right is critical. Judaism, in fact, only has the Sabbath correct. All the other times and seasons in Judaism are celebrated at the wrong times. Correct torah observance can only be recovered by going through the gate of the Sabbath resurrection.
The Church also started down the path of apostasy when it started rejecting details it did not like pointing to Torah timings.
The naysayers simply have no idea of the darkness into which Judaism and Christianity have fallen.
We did not come out of the lawlessness of the Church in order to return to its corrupt chronology.....here a little there a little.
Getting past the traditional chronology lies and traditional language lies is essential to the Messianic Reformation, and is non-negotiable to the true spirit of the movement...however Satan is waging full scale war to bring it down, both from within and without, and even from the top.
The naysayers are just proving that they really think this topic is important by staying and counterpointing.....if you really want it to go away, then stop posting on this thread....and go start your own thread and write something creative and that IS important to you.
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All it takes is one correction of one big lie to shake Christendom down to its very foundations. The resurrection was on the Sabbath...that's what the texts say. And if that is but realized...there will be a polar shift toward Torah and understanding Messianic Prophecy. It is as simple as that.
We are discussing theological kryptonite here and you don't even know it.
We are discussing theological kryptonite here and you don't even know it.
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Yeah, I noticed the same thing. they are dispensational and pure churchy. I didn't see anything pertaining to Messianic Judaism at all on the site. In the SoF only two or three passages from the Tanakh cited at best. In the pages concerning the gospel nothing from the Tanakh quoted. Pure mainstream, dispensational sunday church theology as far as I could see.
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WOFFED
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Wow & Wow! You certainly can't fault them for expressing their views with considerable explanation. Don't think I've ever seen a SoF with such exhaustive detail after detail after detail and then some. On the other hand there are a ton of churches that will bend over backwards to enlist a believer as a bondafide church member, as long as they tell them what they want to hear and remain loyal.
XI The Ministry and Spiritual Gifts ... is the one article that most caught my attention(and others) to your Beware warning. This part is cessationist ... "The Spirit gifts listed in I Cor. 12:7-11, along with the gifts of apostle and prophet, gradually ceased with the completion of the Bible (1 Cor. 12:4-11, 13:8-10; 2Cor. 12:12; Eph. 4:7-12)."
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ananda
Early Buddhist
For one, the substitution of Sunday for Sabbath worship. This is one of the fundamental errors of MC. The growth of the Romanized church, in its path to world dominance, overthrew and reinterpreted the Scriptural moedim ("appointment times of YHWH to meet with His people") for their new, man-made traditions, e.g. Passover became Easter, Sabbath became Sunday, etc. It all goes back to the anti-Law, anti-Jewish roots of MC. So, it does matter.
Did our Father not command us thus:
"take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise." Deu 12:30
&
"take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise." 2Ki 17:15
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- Dec 28, 2011
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What? I don't see the cause and effect. How does a Sunday resurrection have anything at all to do with later developments in the Gentile population?
And just a thought... Let's let the texts say what they say, no matter how they may have been abused by others. Don't live in fear of what the church may have made of the texts over the course of time.
And just a thought... Let's let the texts say what they say, no matter how they may have been abused by others. Don't live in fear of what the church may have made of the texts over the course of time.
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ananda
Early Buddhist
Please refer to Jn 2:19, Jn 11:9, & Mt 12:40.
I agree with yedida's answers to these questions.
This is my line of reasoning: The gospels stated "mia ton Sabbaton" - "one of the Sabbaths" - multiple times, in relation to Messiah's passion week. I reject the idea that "mia ton Sabbaton" should be translated "first day of the week aka Sunday"; the latter should have been written "prote hemera tis hebdomata" in the Greek, if the gospel authors really meant Sunday.
In light of this revised translation ("one of the Sabbaths"), when we read the various gospel accounts, I conclude that Messiah must have risen from the grave just on or before the weekly Sabbath started.
So, based on a pre-Sabbath (just before Friday sunset) resurrection, if we go back 3 full days and 3 full nights (72 hours), it brings us to a Tuesday death. The only year on which the High Passove/Unleavened Bread Sabbath began on a Tuesday night around Messiah's expected year of death was in 31 A.D.
I disagree. I believe that there are plenty of details given, and we were given those details for a reason
Timelines, dates, and appointment times are very important to YHWH, and I have no reason to believe or act otherwise towards this timeline.
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ananda
Early Buddhist
This timeline only works if "mia ton sabbaton" is mistranslated into "first day of the week". If "mia ton sabbaton" is taken at face value ("one of the sabbaths"), this timeline is impossible: Mt 28:1b states that "as it was dawning into one of the Sabbaths" the women went and saw the empty tomb. Therefore Messiah resurrected before the early morning on Saturday.
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ananda
Early Buddhist
Under my timeline, I suggest a revised interpretation of the significance of First Fruits in relation to Messiah's fulfillment:
Passover (14 Aviv): Messiah's death.
Unleavened Bread (15 Aviv): Messiah's burial
First Fruits (16 Aviv): Messiah presented Himself in the heavenly Temple as the wave and burnt offering to YHWH, on behalf of and to accept those who are faithful in Him.
Resurrection (17 Aviv): Judgment & reward given
Sabbath (18 Aviv): Representing the eternal sabbath of rest, wherein the faithful will commune with Messiah for all eternity (Jn 20:19), walking and learning Torah with and from Him (Lk 24:13-32), feast with Him (Lk 24:43), receive His blessing (24:51) and worship Him always (24:52,53).
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WOFFED
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Is MC Man's Christianity or are you implying that Messianic Christianity is an apostasy?
This is referring to pagans worshipping of man-made idols. So, it sounds like your meaning for MC is Man's Christianity and NOT Messianic Christianity or Messianic Congregations.
Question? What is your opinion ("theory") why Yeshua didn't reveal Himself to any of his closest disciples until the First Day (our Sunday)? Let's assume for the sake of your "theory" that the earthquake occurred in conjunction with Yeshua's resurrection at 3pm (assuming he died at 3pm) and the Roman guards hurried to tell their superiors and/or religious/political elite that the stone had been rolled away. Wouldn't news have spread via the grapeviine or at least some lurkers or curiosity seekers have checked out the tomb after they saw the Roman guards had abondoned their post?
What is your "theory" as to why none of Yeshua's disciples/followers didn't know before dawn of the First Day (Sunday morning), at least 10-12 hours later, that the stone had already been rolled away and the tomb was empty?
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ananda
Early Buddhist
Sorry, "MC" meant mainstream Christianity.
I think you misinterpret my timeline:
I believe that Messiah resurrected on Friday evening - not Saturday evening. I believe that the women went to the tomb early on Saturday morning before sunrise. I believe that Messiah met with Peter & Cleopas on the road to Emmaus on Saturday afternoon. I believe that Messiah met with the other disciples on Saturday evening (before sunset, so still on Shabbat).
Again, for reference:
So,
Tuesday, 14 Aviv: Last Supper
Tuesday afternoon, 14 Aviv: Crucifixion
Tuesday late afternoon before sunset, 14 Aviv: Death & burial
Tuesday sunset, 15 Aviv (High Sabbath starts): The women goes to rest
Wednesday sunset, 16 Aviv (end of High Sabbath): The women goes to purchase spices
Wednesday sunset through Friday sunset (beginning of weekly sabbath): Women working to turn spices into perfume
Friday late afternoon before sunset, 17 Aviv: Resurrection of Messiah & then of other saints
Friday sunset, 18 Aviv: Women & other disciples resting
Saturday early morning before sunrise, 18 Aviv: Women brought perfume to tomb & witnessed empty tomb
Saturday afternoon, 18 Aviv: Messiah met with Peter & Cleopas on road to Emmaus
Saturday late afternoon before sunset, 18 Aviv: Messiah met with disciples
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