Mat 28:1 teaches Shabbat Resurrection

[Daniel Gregg]

Actually, the word you've used there should be latter (an adjective). It's a problem of American usage that latter has converged with later.

We're talking about the Greek ὀψέ, though. It is an adverb, but later became used as a preposition (much like κατά [opposite of ἀνά] and several other adverbs turned prepositions). As a preposition, it governs the genitive. Adverbs do not govern cases of nouns.

My point was made with "late" in another post. But the arguments of scholars over opse reveal an equal convergence in Greek.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

You assume correctly. John places the crucifixion at the end of Nisan 14, when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered. The Synoptics have it on Nisan 15, which allows Jesus to eat the Passover with his disciples before he is crucified. I would certainly argue a contradiction.

The problem started here: WTT Exodus 12:15 שִׁבְעַת יָמִים מַצּוֹת תֹּאכֵלוּ אַךְ בַּיּוֹם הָרִאשׁוֹן תַּשְׁבִּיתוּ שְּׂאֹר מִבָּתֵּיכֶם כִּי כָּל־אֹכֵל חָמֵץ וְנִכְרְתָה הַנֶּפֶשׁ הַהִוא מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל מִיּוֹם הָרִאשֹׁן עַד־יוֹם הַשְּׁבִעִי

I suggest you read the JPS Torah commentary remarks on this.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

One problem - ὀψέ is not an adjective, whereas πτωχός (in Romans 15) is. Could you demonstrate the forms of ὀψέ as an adjective? How can I write "a late supper" (with δεῖπνο&#957 using ὀψέ as an adjective? How about "the late hour" (with ὥρ&#945? If it is an adjective, it needs to have declinable distinction between at least some forms to agree in case, number and gender with a head noun in regular use. Can you give one single example of ὀψέ as an adjective in any Greek text?

On the contrary, as I stated, ὀψέ is an adverb, and while adjectives can be used as adverbs (take the neuter πρῶτον "first" as a case in point), as can nouns (such as τέλος for "at last"), we do not find adverbs just waltzing in and becoming undeclinable adjectives at will. They do, however, over time become prepositions that can govern nouns. That's something we see a lot of.

An adverb that is used as an adjective is and adjective (which is common enough). That is much preferable to turning it into an "improper preposition"

By the way, when the genitive I mentioned is involved, case, number, and gender agreement are not required. Like I said, the adjective use is substantive....and my English comments were directed at your English remark.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Yep the contradiction is certainly there and cannot be denied. And according to John the four days of inspection would end on the day of crucifixion, the fourth day of the week - Weds.

So which book(s) are you going to toss out of the canon?

 

[mishkan]

So which book(s) are you going to toss out of the canon?

Personally, I toss out the theologically-driven presumption that Yeshua had to die at the same time as the Passover lambs. Likewise with the silliness of turning "about three days" into 72 hours.

These details don't change the story. They are nothing but time wasters.

 

[WOFFED]

Personally, I toss out the theologically-driven presumption that Yeshua had to die at the same time as the Passover lambs. Likewise with the silliness of turning "about three days" into 72 hours.

These details don't change the story. They are nothing but time wasters.

Here! Here! or is it Hear! Hear! ​

​

The Pharisees could have run circles around Mary Magdalene with their great knowlege of the Torah.
Yet which one was blind and which one was forgiven much.​

Luke7:42-47 (OJB)
42 When they were unable to pay him back, he canceled both their debts. Now which of them will love him more?”
43 Shim‘on answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.” “Your judgment is right,” Yeshua said to him.
44 Then, turning to the woman, he said to Shim‘on, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house — you didn’t give me water for my feet, but this woman has washed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair!
45 You didn’t give me a kiss; but from the time I arrived, this woman has not stopped kissing my feet.
46 You didn’t put oil on my head, but this woman poured perfume on my feet!
47 Because of this, I tell you that her sins — which are many! — have been forgiven, because she loved much. But someone who has been forgiven only a little loves only a little.” ​

 

[mishkan]

Here! Here! or is it Hear! Hear!​

Well... it depends upon whether one is invoking the rule for the hortatory "Hear" or the present subjunctive for "Here". Or... well... you get my point.

The Pharisees could have run circles around Mary Magdalene with their great knowlege of the Torah. Yet which one was blind and which one was forgiven much?

Luke7:42-47
42 "When they were unable to pay him back, he canceled both their debts. Now which of them will love him more?”

43 Shim‘on answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.”

“Your judgment is right,” Yeshua said to him.

44 Then, turning to the woman, he said to Shim‘on, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house — you didn’t give me water for my feet, but this woman has washed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair! 45 You didn’t give me a kiss; but from the time I arrived, this woman has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You didn’t put oil on my head, but this woman poured perfume on my feet! 47 Because of this, I tell you that her sins — which are many! — have been forgiven, because she loved much. But someone who has been forgiven only a little loves only a little.”

I do value study and knowledge. I often wish I had more time for one, so as to increase the other. But I find far too much abuse goes on in the name of religion. There are ways to draw out discussion, share differing opinions, and generally bring benefit to all. And there are ways to present one's self that indicate Truth and Relationship are not high on the priority list.

 

[yedida]

Personally, I toss out the theologically-driven presumption that Yeshua had to die at the same time as the Passover lambs. Likewise with the silliness of turning "about three days" into 72 hours.

These details don't change the story. They are nothing but time wasters.

This stuff is being debated like it matters!! It doesn't. It happened when it happened and it makes no difference whether we think is was Weds or Thurs, our thinking doesn't change the outcome in the least. It's so silly. (My biggest problem is that I can only stay silent for so long....lol)

 

[ananda]

John places the crucifixion at the end of Nisan 14, when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered. The Synoptics have it on Nisan 15, which allows Jesus to eat the Passover with his disciples before he is crucified. I would certainly argue a contradiction.

Yep the contradiction is certainly there and cannot be denied. And according to John the four days of inspection would end on the day of crucifixion, the fourth day of the week - Weds.

I deny that there's a discrepancy

The Last Supper happened on 14 Aviv (after sunset on Monday, Mar 26th, 31a.d., on my timeline). The Synoptics called it the "first of unleavened bread", as "unleavened bread" was commonly synonymous with "Passover" (cf Josephus Anti 2:15:1 & Deu 16:1-3 - unleavened bread was eaten beginning on 14 Aviv!). John was simply much more precise, when he wrote "before the feast of passover".

All accounts are thus harmonized.

 

[ananda]

These details don't change the story. They are nothing but time wasters.

The details do indeed change the story. Whether Messiah rose on or before Sabbath or Sunday changes alot of things! This is the main point of this thread.

 

[visionary]

It is down to this.... Did Yeshua fulfill the springs time feasts as to God's time appointed? Did Yeshua fulfill the prophecies of Daniel according to the appoint time? Did Yeshua fulfill the prophecies related to the suffering servant?

 

[mishkan]

The details do indeed change the story. Whether Messiah rose on or before Sabbath or Sunday changes alot of things! This is the main point of this thread.

What changes, then?

Does Messiah still die?

Does he still rise?

Do all the events still occur around the time of Passover/Matzah/Bikkurim?

What difference does it make, in reality, whether Yeshua rose after 24, 48, 36, 72, or 144 hours?

 

[yedida]

It is down to this.... Did Yeshua fulfill the springs time feasts as to God's time appointed? Did Yeshua fulfill the prophecies of Daniel according to the appoint time? Did Yeshua fulfill the prophecies related to the suffering servant?

The prophecies were fulfilled as Hashem deemed them to be. Whether or not that includes what they at the time thought it should be or what we today think it should have been is neither here nor there. It, indeed, does not change the fact that it all happened just Hashem wanted it to happen. It is what we do with the bigger picture that matters, not did it happen on the 14th or 15th, that is just a minor detail when taken as just a part of a whole. Do we know Hashem's plans better than He? I don't think so.

 

[visionary]

Why would God be specific if He didn't intend for us to trust the specifics because He wasn't going to keep to the specifics?

 

[ananda]

What difference does it make, in reality, whether Yeshua rose after 24, 48, 36, 72, or 144 hours?

The accuracy of His very Word is at stake.

I mean, isn't that why many of us left mainstream Christianity? Often because they played fast and loose with the Word? Or in light of how many in MC decided to ignore certain details and specifics in order to come to consensus with one another? Isn't that what you're advocating in this case, as well?

 

[mishkan]

The accuracy of His very Word is at stake.

In what way? What ceases to be accurate?

I mean, isn't that why many of us left mainstream Christianity? Often because they played fast and loose with the Word? Or in light of how many in MC decided to ignore certain details and specifics in order to come to consensus with one another?

I can't speak for anyone but myself. For me, the glaring deficiency that provoked me to dig deeper was the absence of anything about Israel in the Christian theology I was being taught.

Fast and loose? I suppose you could call it that.

Isn't that what you're advocating in this case, as well?

If you want to see it that way. I'm advocating reading the material from the perspective of the people who wrote it. Matthew/Mark/Luke all evidence close collaberation, so they count as one witness. John was written completely independently of them, some 20-30 years later. That's two completely different perspectives, written with very different purposes in mind.

I have no problem accepting the fact that we, 2000 years later, may lack some vital clue that would help us pin down what these authors considered self-evident.

By the way, you never really did say what would be changed, based on differing understandings of the texts?

 

[Qnts2]

The accuracy of His very Word is at stake.

I mean, isn't that why many of us left mainstream Christianity? Often because they played fast and loose with the Word? Or in light of how many in MC decided to ignore certain details and specifics in order to come to consensus with one another? Isn't that what you're advocating in this case, as well?

Just a few questions.

I see people calculating 72 hours. Where in scripture does it say Yeshua would be raised in 72 hours?

Where in scripture does it say Yeshua was sacrificed at the same time as the Passover lambs?

Where in scripture does it say Yeshua had to be checked for 4 days, by the Priests?

Where in scripture does it say what week day Passover occurred? (Some people seem to assume the death of Yeshua occurred on a Wednesday, I don't see that in scripture).

To me, it sounds like many are debating details which are not in scripture, or making assumptions not supported by scripture.

So, what is being discussed is detail, which scripture doesn't bother to deal with. Because all scripture is from God, and God doesn't deal in this level of detail, so it is really not that important.

 

[WOFFED]

What difference does it make, in reality, whether Yeshua rose after 24, 48, 36, 72, or 144 hours?

You forgot to include my 84 hour 'theory' ​

Are you not being just a little too indifferent (irreverent) with your inclusion of "24, 48, 36 hours"?
One might think you believe Yeshua was possibly crucified on Good Friday (Sixth Day)
and was resurrected before "3 days and 3 nights" had elapsed
​

Friday
Preparation DaySaturday
7th day SabbathSunday
1st Day of WeekMatthew26:20 - 27:6127:62 - 27:6628:1 - 28:15Mark14:17 - 15:4716:116:1 - 16:13Luke22:14 - 23:5623:5624:1 - 24:53John13:1 - 19:42-20:1 - 20:23

 

[yedida]

Just a few questions.

I see people calculating 72 hours. Where in scripture does it say Yeshua would be raised in 72 hours?

Where in scripture does it say Yeshua was sacrificed at the same time as the Passover lambs?

Where in scripture does it say Yeshua had to be checked for 4 days, by the Priests?

Where in scripture does it say what week day Passover occurred? (Some people seem to assume the death of Yeshua occurred on a Wednesday, I don't see that in scripture).

To me, it sounds like many are debating details which are not in scripture, or making assumptions not supported by scripture.

So, what is being discussed is detail, which scripture doesn't bother to deal with. Because all scripture is from God, and God doesn't deal in this level of detail, so it is really not that important.

I can only answer one of the questions, the one that I hold to. If we see Yeshua as the Passover lamb then it stands to reason that just like the Exodus lamb, he would be taken into the home (the Temple) and checked for four days. That's in Exodus.
The next one, I go by John's timeline. And if you follow that and go back to the Jerusalem entry, it figures to a Sat. entry, a Sunday entry into the Temple and Weds being the 4th day.
I don't hold to 72 hours exactly, but close to it.
But all this is just a reckoning. What happened, happened regardless of the timing I've come up with or whatever timing anyone has come up with. I don't think we have all of the info needed to be dogmatic about any of it in the minor details. It's the major details that are important. Those happened just as Hashem ordained them and they accomplished just what He deemed they should accomplish.

 

[WOFFED]

I see people calculating 72 hours. Where in scripture does it say Yeshua would be raised in 72 hours?

So, what is being discussed is detail, which scripture doesn't bother to deal with. Because all scripture is from God, and God doesn't deal in this level of detail, so it is really not that important.

Actually God is very detail minded. Isn't that one of man's gifts from our heavenly Father. Both men and women can be very detail minded when they are passionate about something that dearly interests them. So, any way let me post the following as kind of a review of netzarim's logic. However, as others expressed in so many words, "He has Risen!"

The following is at ...http://www.gnmc.us/ThreeDaysandThreeNights.htm​

The prophesy of Matthew 12:40 can only be understood as a literal 72 hour period. Jesus makes His words very clear—“three days and three nights.” Many people today believe that Jesus was crucified on Friday and then resurrected from the dead on Sunday morning. A careful examination of the scriptures shows us that this could not be true. Jesus was crucified on the Passover and entombed just prior to the start of the High Sabbath (not weekend Sabbath) that followed Passover. He then resurrected at the close of the weekend Sabbath. Since the weekend Sabbath ended at 6:00 p.m. Saturday, if we go back 72 hours we end up on Wednesday. The truth is that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday[Fourth Day] (Passover), was then entombed just prior to the start of Thursday (High Sabbath, first day of Unleavened Bread), and then resurrected just prior to the end of Saturday (weekend Sabbath). The time period of Wednesday to Saturday fulfills Jesus’ words, “three days and three nights.”

Nisan 10th Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey’s colt; the father of each household is to select an unblemished, one year old male sheep, or goat, and keep it for four days to be slain on the Passover. ~ Ex . 12:3-13; Jn. 12:12-16
Nisan 14th 6:00 P.M. Wednesday begins, it is the day of preparation and the Passover. Jesus eats His last meal with His disciples. ~ Lk 22:8-16

Wednesday evening, Jesus goes to pray; He is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane. ~ Mk. 14:32

Jesus is taken to Annas’ house (the high priest’s father-in- law). ~ Jn. 18:13

Annas sends Jesus to Caiaphas, the high priest, to be questioned illegally. ~ Lk. 22:53

Jesus is sentenced to death by the council; Peter denies Him. ~ Lk. 22:61-71

The Elders bind Jesus and take Him to Pilate, the governor. ~ Mt. 27:2

Pilate finds Him innocent and sends Him to Herod. ~ Lk. 23:6-15

Herod finds Him innocent and sends Him back to Pilate. ~ Lk. 23:6

Pilate declares three times the innocence of Jesus. ~ Jn. 18:4, 6, 19, 38

The crowds shout out, “Crucify Him, His blood shall be on us and on our children!” ~ Mt. 27:23-25

At the third hour, 9:00 A.M., Jesus is crucified. ~ Mk. 15:25

At the ninth hour (twilight), 3:00 P.M., Jesus dies. ~ Mk. 15:34-37; Ex. 12:6

Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus entomb the body of Jesus before the start of the High Sabbath. ~ Jn. 19: 31, 38-42

Jesus was the world’s Passover Lamb, slain for sins, to save us from the death angel and the eternal flames we deserve. ~ Ex. 12:6; 1 Co. 5:7

Nisan 15th Thursday is the High Sabbath, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread ~ Lev. 23:6. As the day closes Jesus has been in the heart of the earth (Hades) one full day and night.
Nisan 16thFriday is the second day of the feast. As the day closes Jesus has been in the heart of the earth (Hades) two full days and nights.
Nisan 17th Saturday, sometime between 3:00 – 6:00 P.M., Jesus resurrects, having been in the heart of the earth (Hades) for three full days and nights, fulfilling the prophecy of Matt. 12:40: “…so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”