Mat 28:1 teaches Shabbat Resurrection

[Daniel Gregg]

Opse with the genitive = Later. It late on the Sabbath, but the LATER of the SABBATHS.

I think that that verse says it all...
"late on the sabbath day"... which indicates saturday night...
"dawn towards the first day"... which indicates sunday morning...

and somewhere in those dark hours Yeshua was resurrected.

 

[ananda]

Nisan 14 was on the 4th day that year. The solution is that each "day" is a day and a night, not a night and a day.

Daniel, to clarify:

Both you and I believe that Messiah resurrected on or just before the weekly Sabbath, and that the Greek texts support this through the use of the words "sabbaton", erroneously translated "first day of the week" by mainstream translators.

You believe that Messiah died approximately two days earlier, and you state that this is justified by inclusive counting.

I believe that Messiah died exactly 72 hours (three full days, three full nights earlier), and I deny inclusive counting.

Would you say this is an accurate summation of our agreement & disagreements?

 

[mishkan]

I believe that Messiah died exactly 72 hours (three full days, three full nights earlier)

Why?

and I deny inclusive counting.

Why?

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I thought of this long ago, but "later of the Sabbaths" is a better solution, because: it keeps Sabbaths plural here. Just to clarify, my position is that the resurrection was just before dawn on the seventh day, 72 hours after Yeshua was brought before the High Priest and struck.

I also support Daniel's contention that Messiah's resurrection occurred on the exact start of (or just before) the weekly Sabbath. I also believe that Messiah died exactly 72 hours prior on a Tuesday evening on the exact start of (or just before) the High Passover Sabbath.

I suggest this as a more correct translation.

27:66-28:1a they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch: now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath. ("opse de Sabbaton" in the Greek). 28:1b As it began to dawn in one of the [weekly] sabbaths ("mian sabbaton" in the Greek), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb.

I suggest that whomever divided the Greek into verses made a bad choice to start 28:1 where it is in most Bibles today. I contend that the first part of 28:1 actually belongs with 27:66.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

This is true (3 p.m. death), and is a problem with Netsarim's theory. The solution it to realize that in Jonah SHEOL does not necessarily mean dead or in the grave. SHEOL includes the threat of death or near death also.

According to Luke's 'orderly account' Yeshua's death occured sometime between noon and 3pm.


Luke 23:44-48 (CJB)
44 It was now about noon, and darkness covered the whole Land until three o’clock in the afternoon;
45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle.
46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” With these words he gave up his spirit.
47 When the Roman officer saw what had happened, he began to praise God and said, “Surely this man was innocent!”
48 And when all the crowds that had gathered to watch the spectacle saw the things that had occurred, they returned home beating their breasts.

 

[ananda]

Why? Why?

Messiah said "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" Jn 11:9 Messiah Himself defined the period of a day (and by implication, the night). 3 days + 3 nights = 72 hours.

I think it's also interesting to note that Messiah's comment here about the 12 hours was in context of raising Lazarus from the dead, and also in light of those who wanted to stone Messiah. I believe that both contexts allude to Messiah's own death & resurrection, and that His definition of a day is in reference to the same.

So, in my opinion, a partial day, e.g. 3pm-sunset, does not constitute "one day", in light of Messiah's definition.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I agree, but I would not take ὀψὲ τοῦ σαββάτου as “late on the Sabbath day,” but rather as “after the Sabbath day” – as I stated before.

If you check thayer's lexicon you will see the editor disputes the sense "after", also LSJ append a ? after this alleged sense. In order to get after a comparative or ablative sense has to be invoked, "late from the Sabbaths" or "later than the Sabbaths"...and obviously if you can stretch the genitive that far then "later of the Sabbaths" is perfectly sensible.

The ablative use is more common in Classical, and rare in Koine...see Wallace.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Yes, my theory is open to the idea that He died at around or after 3pm on the day before the High Passover Sabbath, and that He rose at around or after 3pm on Friday just before the weekly sabbath.

Then the resurrection would no longer be on the Sabbath! But surely the point of "first of the Sabbaths" is to indicate it was. Once again your problem is your day is a night and a day. It is supposed to be a day and a night.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

We agree on the later point, Yonah, however the embalming was done by Joseph and Nicodemus on Friday (see Graham Scroggie, Guide to the gospels). The women took aromatics...sweet spices. It was merely the last opportunity to visit and show respect for the dead at the end of the third day.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

See my point to Yonah...the women did not do the embalming...simply sweet spices for final rites. No two day timetable is required.

After Messiah died on Tuesday evening, and Joseph took his body down and buried it, it was already the beginning of the High Sabbath. The women went and rested according to the commandment.

Wednesday evening or early Thursday morning, after the end of the High Sabbath, they went and purchased spices. I suggest that it took them at least a day to two days (Thursday through Friday) of hard work to turn the spices into perfumes. Then they went to the tomb on the weekly sabbath to anoint His body.

The traditional timelines involving a single sabbath are full of holes. Where would the women have gone to purchase spices on the sabbath? Would (& could) they have worked so hard in such a short period of time - on the sabbath - to turn the spices into perfume?

 

[ananda]

Then the resurrection would no longer be on the Sabbath! But surely the point of "first of the Sabbaths" is to indicate it was.

I'm not aware of where it specifically says that Messiah rose on the Sabbath - just that the women went to see Messiah's body on the dawn of one of the sabbaths.

Once again your problem is your day is a night and a day. It is supposed to be a day and a night.

Not per Lev 6:9.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Daniel, to clarify:

Both you and I believe that Messiah resurrected on or just before the weekly Sabbath, and that the Greek texts support this through the use of the words "sabbaton", erroneously translated "first day of the week" by mainstream translators.

You believe that Messiah died approximately two days earlier, and you state that this is justified by inclusive counting.

I believe that Messiah died exactly 72 hours (three full days, three full nights earlier), and I deny inclusive counting.

Would you say this is an accurate summation of our agreement & disagreements?

Not exactly...you fit the resurrection between 3 pm. Friday and 6 p.m. at the boundary of Friday and Sabbath...I put it at dawn on the Sabbath (at the earliest hint of dawn). So you got this part right, I am just making the difference more precise for readers.

I believe in BOTH 72 hours and inclusive counting, i.e. what I teach fits both, whichever you wish. The reason as I pointed out before is the use of the word SHEOL by Jonah to describe his desperate straits when he was NOT dead and NOT in a grave. So i include Yeshua's suffering which began at dawn on the 4th day in the three days and three nights.

On two points my position is more literal, the order of day before night in mat. 12:40 and jonah 1:17...which is confirmed by 1Samuel 30., and that a most literal interpretation of Sheol will have to include the threat of death as well as death and burial....and thus a full three days and three nights is spanned. So the correction here is I do not deny the validity of 72 hours.

 

[ananda]

i include Yeshua's suffering which began at dawn on the 4th day in the three days and three nights.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Jn 2:19

Note that Messiah Himself related that His death would mark the beginning of the 3 day & night count - not from the beginning of His sufferings.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Why?



Why?

I do deny that sort of inclusive counting promoted by Lightfoot that makes three days and three nights turn into three days and TWO nights.

 

[ananda]

See my point to Yonah...the women did not do the embalming...simply sweet spices for final rites. No two day timetable is required.

I never said that they were going to embalm His body

 

[Daniel Gregg]

This argument has a typeological, foreshadowing charm, but I don't think I could take it must further than that.

Messiah said "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" Jn 11:9 Messiah Himself defined the period of a day (and by implication, the night). 3 days + 3 nights = 72 hours.

I think it's also interesting to note that Messiah's comment here about the 12 hours was in context of raising Lazarus from the dead, and also in light of those who wanted to stone Messiah. I believe that both contexts allude to Messiah's own death & resurrection, and that His definition of a day is in reference to the same.

So, in my opinion, a partial day, e.g. 3pm-sunset, does not constitute "one day", in light of Messiah's definition.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I'm not aware of where it specifically says that Messiah rose on the Sabbath - just that the women went to see Messiah's body on the dawn of one of the sabbaths.

Not per Lev 6:9.

I thought you wanted to agree to disagree on this. All involuntary offerings were eaten for a day and a night, and none to remain past daybreak, i.e. Lev. 7:15, Deut, 16, Exodus 12...none till daybreak. Also, Gen. 1 puts the day before the night (see Jacob Milgrom, JPS Torah Commentary, and Franz Delitzsch). Lev. 6:9...the offering ascended until the daybreak, and that is when it was ended by removal of the ashes. The priest could put any uneaten portion of the offering on the alter up to midnight so long as it burned by morning. Don't be fooled by the fact that Judaism has the Sabbath timing correct (between sunsets)...the assumption that the Jewish day always begins at sunset is post a.d. 70.

 

[visionary]

When the Jewish religious leaders asked Jesus for a sign to prove that He was sent from God, Yeshua answered, Matt 12:39-40 An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet NO SIGN shall be given to it BUT THE SIGN OF JONAH the prophet. For just as Jonah was THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth.

First 24 hours = First Night and Day
Wednesday evening - taken to the tomb
Start of the High Sabbath
Start of the Feast of Unleaven Bread

Second 24 hours = Second Night and Day
Thursday Evening - preparations for the coming Sabbath start
Market opens in the morning and the Women go to purchase spices necessary to prepare Yeshua's body along with the regular preparations for the Sabbath.

Third 24 hours. = Third Night and Day
Friday Evening - Women were unable to finish the spice preparations for the body so they rested for the Sabbath. Saturday Evening - Sometime between Saturday evening and Sunday morning Yeshua was resurrected.

The priests go out very early to gather the first wave sheafs to bring back to the temple for the Feast of First Fruits. Women go to the tomb bright and early sunday morning only to find that He is already resurrected.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Jn 2:19

Note that Messiah Himself related that His death would mark the beginning of the 3 day & night count - not from the beginning of His sufferings.

The destruction of his bodily temple began when the first blood flowed as he was struck on the face. However, the types tell us that "IN" = "within"...

ASV Genesis 40:13 within yet three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head, and restore thee unto thine office: and thou shalt give Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

בְּעוֹד שְׁלֹשֶׁת יָמִים יִשָּׂא פַרְעֹה אֶת־רֹאשֶׁךָ וַהֲשִׁיבְךָ עַל־כַּנֶּךָ וְנָתַתָּ כוֹס־פַּרְעֹה בְּיָדוֹ כַּמִּשְׁפָּט הָרִאשׁוֹן אֲשֶׁר הָיִיתָ מַשְׁקֵהוּ

 

[WOFFED]

Agreed.

I believe Messiah was crucified on Passover, 14 Aviv. The High Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath was the next Jewish day, 15 Aviv.

OK, as usual I was making it more difficult than necessary. So 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) would have expired no sooner than noon and more likely about 3 pm on the Seventh Day assuming as we both do now that Yeshua's crucifixion took place on the Fourth Day (Aviv 14).

My own ‘theory’ is that the earthquake that rolled the stone away occurred at 3am about nine hours into the First Day. My reasoning for 3am is that I’ve heard of so many Believers (myself included) being awakened at 3am by the L-rd. Also the number 3 and 12 hours elapsing from 3pm to 3am for a total of 84 hours since Yeshua's crucifixion death. Eighty-four divided by twelve is seven which is symbolic for 'completion.'. Oh, here I go again

The darkest hour has long been used to mean 'the lowest ebb' with the hour before dawn most often referred to figuratively, but I'll still stick with 3am.



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