Mat 28:1 teaches Shabbat Resurrection

[visionary]

The only way Yeshua's resurrection could have occured on the Sabbath, 7th Day (which I believe) is if Passover, Nissan 14 actually occured on the Third Day assuming 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) had to have elapsed before the resurrection; which we all seem to agree happened sometime before early Saturday morning when Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb with Mary.


"Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." (Matt 28:1 ASV)

I think that that verse says it all...
"late on the sabbath day"... which indicates saturday night...
"dawn towards the first day"... which indicates sunday morning...

and somewhere in those dark hours Yeshua was resurrected.

 

[Qnts2]

Most not all messianic Jews like myself in general believe in a Sunday resurrection, First Fruits fulfillment.

Yup. Agreed.

 

[ananda]

The only way Yeshua's resurrection could have occured on the Sabbath, 7th Day (which I believe) is if Passover, Nissan 14 actually occured on the Third Day assuming 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) had to have elapsed before the resurrection; which we all seem to agree happened sometime before early Saturday morning when Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb with Mary.

I also support Daniel's contention that Messiah's resurrection occurred on the exact start of (or just before) the weekly Sabbath. I also believe that Messiah died exactly 72 hours prior on a Tuesday evening on the exact start of (or just before) the High Passover Sabbath.

"Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." (Matt 28:1 ASV)

Or as implied in Young's Literal Translation was Sunday, the First Day following Passover also considered a Sabbath Day.

I suggest this as a more correct translation.

27:66-28:1a they went, and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch: now it is the evening of the [High] Sabbath. ("opse de Sabbaton" in the Greek). 28:1b As it began to dawn in one of the [weekly] sabbaths ("mian sabbaton" in the Greek), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb.

I suggest that whomever divided the Greek into verses made a bad choice to start 28:1 where it is in most Bibles today. I contend that the first part of 28:1 actually belongs with 27:66.

 

[WOFFED]

Most not all messianic Jews like myself in general believe in a Sunday resurrection, First Fruits fulfillment.

Stands to reason, otherwise Nissan 14, Passover would have had to fall on the Third Day instead of the Fourth Day for 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) to have elapsed.

 

[WOFFED]

I also support Daniel's contention that Messiah's resurrection occurred on the exact start of (or just before) the weekly Sabbath. Messiah died exactly 72 hours prior on a Tuesday evening on the exact start of (or just before) the High Passover Sabbath.

According to Luke's 'orderly account' Yeshua's death occured sometime between noon and 3pm.


Luke 23:44-48 (CJB)
44 It was now about noon, and darkness covered the whole Land until three o’clock in the afternoon;
45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle.
46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” With these words he gave up his spirit.
47 When the Roman officer saw what had happened, he began to praise God and said, “Surely this man was innocent!”
48 And when all the crowds that had gathered to watch the spectacle saw the things that had occurred, they returned home beating their breasts.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I think that that verse says it all...
"late on the sabbath day"... which indicates saturday night...
"dawn towards the first day"... which indicates sunday morning...

and somewhere in those dark hours Yeshua was resurrected.

I agree, but I would not take ὀψὲ τοῦ σαββάτου as “late on the Sabbath day,” but rather as “after the Sabbath day” – as I stated before.

 

[ananda]

According to Luke's 'orderly account' Yeshua's death occured sometime between noon and 3pm.

Yes, my theory is open to the idea that He died at around or after 3pm on the day before the High Passover Sabbath, and that He rose at around or after 3pm on Friday just before the weekly sabbath.

 

[WOFFED]

Yes, my theory is open to the idea that He died at around or after 3pm on the day before the High Passover Sabbath, and that He rose at around or after 3pm on Friday just before the weekly sabbath.

Are you saying you believe Yeshua was crucified on the Third Day and not the Fourth Day. Is it your "theory' that the 'High Passover Sabbath' occured on the Fourth Day?

Why do you now say He died around or after 3pm when you previously said ...

I also support Daniel's contention that Messiah's resurrection occurred on the exact start of (or just before) the weekly Sabbath. Messiah died exactly 72 hours prior on a Tuesday evening on the exact start of (or just before) the High Passover Sabbath.

EDIT: OK, I understand so forget immediate quote preceeded by my question.

 

[ananda]

After Messiah died on Tuesday evening, and Joseph took his body down and buried it, it was already the beginning of the High Sabbath. The women went and rested according to the commandment.

Wednesday evening or early Thursday morning, after the end of the High Sabbath, they went and purchased spices. I suggest that it took them at least a day to two days (Thursday through Friday) of hard work to turn the spices into perfumes. Then they went to the tomb on the weekly sabbath to anoint His body.

The traditional timelines involving a single sabbath are full of holes. Where would the women have gone to purchase spices on the sabbath? Would (& could) they have worked so hard in such a short period of time - on the sabbath - to turn the spices into perfume?

 

[ananda]

Are you saying you believe Yeshua was crucified on the Third Day and not the Fourth Day. Is it your "theory' that the 'High Passover Sabbath' occured on the Fourth Day?

Perhaps my chart which I posted previously would explain my position:

Why do you now say He died around or after 3pm when you previously said ...

Me and my perspective are open to correction. I do believe He died sometime during this time period: 3pm to the exact moment of the start of Sabbath. Luke 23 does not discount either possibility.

 

[WOFFED]

Perhaps my chart which I posted previously would explain my position:

Me and my perspective are open to correction. I do believe He died sometime during this time period: 3pm to the exact moment of the start of Sabbath. Luke 23 does not discount either possibility.

Our western Tuesday overlaps the Jewish Third Day and Fourth Day. Our Tuesday doesn't begin until 12:01 just after midnight about 6 hours into the Jewish Third Day. So, your theory is that Yeshua died on the Third Day sometime between 3pm and sundown, before the start of the Fourth Day.

So, my question according to your theory: Do you believe Yeshua was crucified on Passover, Nissan 14 or do you believe the High Passover Sabbath occured one the Fourth Day, Nissan 14.

 

[ananda]

Our western Tuesday overlaps the Jewish Third Day and Fourth Day. Our Tuesday doesn't begin until 12:01 just after midnight about 6 hours into the Jewish Third Day. So, your theory is that Yeshua died on the Third Day sometime between 3pm and sundown, before the start of the Fourth Day.

Agreed.

So, my question according to your theory: Do you believe Yeshua was crucified on Passover, Nissan 14 or do you believe the High Passover Sabbath occured one the Fourth Day, Nissan 14.

I believe Messiah was crucified on Passover, 14 Aviv. The High Passover/Unleavened Bread Sabbath was the next Jewish day, 15 Aviv.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Mark 16 states also that Sabbath had passed:

Καὶ διαγενομένου τοῦ σαββάτου Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου καὶ Σαλώμη ἠγόρασαν ἀρώματα ἵνα ἐλθοῦσαι ἀλείψωσιν αὐτόν.

The phrase διαγενομένου τοῦ σαββάτου is a genitive absolute meaning “the Sabbath having past.” It also contradicts the claim of this thread.

Clearly, you are not educated in Standard Wed-Sabbath resurrection theory. The Mark 16:1 Sabbath is regarded as the annual Sabbath, Wed sunset to Thu sunset. See Lev. 23:11.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Luke 23:56 says that the women prepared spices before Sabbath and rested on the Sabbath. Then it states that they came on the first day of the week (using the phrase being unsuccessfully contended here) to anoint the body.

Everything agrees. Jesus was killed on the preparation day, the spices were prepared by the women to anoint his body, Jesus was laid to rest, the Sabbath past and they rested and did not attend to the anointing, then on Sunday morning (after Sabbath) they came to the tomb to anoint the body and the tomb was empty.

Your Greek is poor indeed if you think the chapter division for Luke 24 is correct. It's not, and is the the answer to your objection:

54 And it was the day before a Shabba̱t̑.† 55 Now the women who had come with him out of Ga̱li̧l followed after, and saw the tomb and how his body was laid. 56 and they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.
The Resurrection
24
And on the one Shabba̱t̑ they rested according to the commandment, 1 but on the first of the Shabba̱t̑s, at deep dawn they came upon the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared.† 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,[]

►24:1 Luk23v56b has been joined to chapter 24 here: καὶ τὸ μὲν σάββατον ἡσύχασαν κατὰ τὴν ἐντολήν, τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ὄρθρου βαθέως ἐπὶ τὸ μνῆμα ἦλθον φέρουσαι ἃ ἡτοίμασαν ἀρώματα. The construction is a typical
μὲν… δὲ contrast giving the sense, “one the one hand...but on the other”; two
Sabbaths are mentioned, the one being the 15th of Nisan, or the first day of unleavened bread, and the other being the weekly Sabbath following ● The words “according to the commandment” are missing from Codex Bezae; but if a commandment is needed, then it is supplied in Lev23v7 ● The annual Sabbath that year was Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset, which left a day between it and the weekly Sabbath on which to buy and prepare the spices ● Please note that they did not buy or prepare the spices before the annual Sabbath; this might be implied if vs. 23:56b were joined to the end of chapter 23, and if the Shabba̱t̑ there were read in sequence after the spices remark. The μὲν… δὲ contrast shows that 23:56b goes with chapter 24 vs. 1. Since it is placed where the narrative begins to tell the story anew, it is not surprising that the narrative backtracks to contrast the two Shabba̱t̑s. This arrangement is strongly suggested by the Greek grammar, and confirmed in at least two Lutheran commentaries that deal with Greek matters; J.P. Green’s Interlinear Bible, 2nd ed., 4 vols., vol. IV has the Greek text divided in exactly the manner I have here. It is further obvious that J.P. Green was confused (or his publisher) when in 1985 the English translation was placed in the side column. For the annual Sabbath is duplicated in 24:1 and the weekly Sabbath left out. Surely that was not their intention.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Opse de Sabbaton = late of Sabbaths
The result of the genitive is "Later of the Sabbaths", i.e. the second Sabbath.

Matthew 28:1 (YLT)

And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Matthew 28:1 (ASV)
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The early translators had a challenge between Jewish reckoning and Roman reckoning. Also it is no secret that the Catholic Church wanted to believe the resurrection took place on Sunday ... they also believed the world was flat.

It’s obvious from reading different translations that Yeshua’s resurrection took place midway through the Seventh Day. For the sake of this example lets say it was about 12 hours into the Seventh Day; which began at sundown (on Friday of western week reckoning) continuing until just before sundown (on Saturday of western week).

The only way to account for a cumulative 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) having elapsed from the time Yeshua gave up his spirit to his resurrection was if Yeshua gave up his spirit on noon of the Fourth Day.

Luke 23:44-48 (CJB)
44 It was now about noon, and darkness covered the whole Land until three o’clock in the afternoon;
45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle.
46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” With these words he gave up his spirit.
47 When the Roman officer saw what had happened, he began to praise God and said, “Surely this man was innocent!”
48 And when all the crowds that had gathered to watch the spectacle saw the things that had occurred, they returned home beating their breasts.

As we found out from Vis ( http://www.christianforums.com/t7721810/ ) that Luke did not always record events chronologically, but he did record them in an 'orderly manner.' So, it's possible that it was noon when the parokhet was split down the middle and Yeshua committed his spirit into the hands of his father.

Edit Clarification: Opps! 72 hours counting from noon on Passover (the Fourth Day) would take us to noon of the Seventh Day. If Yeshua committed his spirit into the hands of his father at 3pm then 72 hours later would be 3pm on the Sabbath Seventh Day or about 3 hours before sundown before Yeshua Hamashiach was resurrected, assuming 72 hours had to transpire. That leads one to ponder if Nissan 14 actually occured on the Third Day and not the Fourth Day.

 

[Avodat]

We have four views on one incident, three with slight differences and one with major differences. Each wrote their part for particular groups of people or to place certain emphases on particular parts - it is precisely these actions that make us certain as to its authenticity. Have you not understood that? If you had a book called Gospels (for example) with four chapters made up from four witnesses, wouldn't you consider it odd that all four were exactly the same in every respect? You would expect there to be some difference and some to be the same, but not every last, final detail, surely?

Do remember of course, that these things were written down some time after the events portrayed, from memory, and from shared thoughts at times.

 

[visionary]

Perhaps my chart which I posted previously would explain my position:

Me and my perspective are open to correction. I do believe He died sometime during this time period: 3pm to the exact moment of the start of Sabbath. Luke 23 does not discount either possibility.

Sabbath never starts around 3 pm... around 6 pm..yes

 

[Daniel Gregg]

or propaganda mills... tradition held by concensus... that is why established religious organizations do not upgrade with new light... aka fall feasts and the second coming.

The Big Bangers have peer review also, and good astrophysicists like Halton Aarp cannot get published. In fact he was kicked off of the Palomar telescope because they did not want him taking any more photo's of QSO's joined to near galaxies. Peer review = wordly approval.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

The only way Yeshua's resurrection could have occured on the Sabbath, 7th Day (which I believe) is if Passover, Nissan 14 actually occured on the Third Day assuming 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) had to have elapsed before the resurrection; which we all seem to agree happened sometime before early Saturday morning when Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb with Mary.


"Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." (Matt 28:1 ASV)

Or as implied in Young's Literal Translation was Sunday, the First Day following Passover also considered a Sabbath Day.

Nisan 14 was on the 4th day that year. The solution is that each "day" is a day and a night, not a night and a day.

 

[ananda]

Sabbath never starts around 3 pm... around 6 pm..yes

Agreed.

My chart simply shows one possibility, that Messiah died at the exact beginning of the High Passover Sabbath. I am also open to the possibility that He died as early as 3pm just before the High Passover Sabbath - or any time between those two possibilities: 3pm-sunset.